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Post-election statement: A New Hope - the search for power & purpose

Monday, May 17 2010

In truth the New Labour era was over some time ago. The refusal to change is the reason Labour lost. In spite of the election result there is still a progressive majority in our country to be mobilised; a majority that feels anxious and insecure, whose lives are out of control. There are new social movements and new ways of organising that offer a tantalising glimpse of radical political change. In these changed and challenging times, Compass will stand for a new hope; for the dream of a better world that is created by the people of our country.

Beginning today, Compass will commence a parallel but interlinked process of renewal. First, we will work with thousands if not millions of others to defend the most vulnerable in our country and the institutions that safeguard social progress, whenever and wherever they come under attack. Second, we will dramatically increase the pace of the project that Compass began when Labour was in government, to revitalise and provide direction for the democratic left. A progressive alliance has to be built; whether we are in government or not.

To do this effectively we must first understand the scale of defeat. In government Labour delivered important achievements that we can be proud of: the minimum wage; tax credits; Sure Start; devolution; peace in Northern Ireland and more. But there is the other list that doesn't make us feel proud at all: the invasion of Iraq; the assault on civil liberties; being relaxed about the filthy rich; deregulation of the financial sector; privatisation; tuition fees and many more. We can all make our lists and come up with a positive or negative score.

Yet this misses the key point. The Party should not expect miracles in one term or even three. We know that transforming society takes time. We look to nations like Sweden where change took decades. Politics is about pragmatism, knowing where you are going but being clever about how you get there. So the real test of Labour's time in office is this: are we stronger as a movement, as a set of ideas and an organisational force so that we have a platform from which we can be more radical in the future? The answer to that big question, sadly, is no.

The recent British Social Attitudes survey showed that support for key social democratic principles has declined: in part because Labour's leaders said equality didn't matter any more. A recent poll in the Financial Times put Labour third in terms of the party to deliver social justice! Change by stealth doesn't work. We know the Party is in a weak and perilous state, membership has more than halved and many local parties are moribund. The unions are weaker with density down to 28%. Many progressive individuals and organisations shun Labour because of its record and some voted for other parties for exactly that reason.

We must be movement builders again. But it will not be easy, especially when some are already trying to create a myth about the defeat. The myth is that the result was not actually that bad. After all, they say, Labour's core vote held up quite well; it didn't go into meltdown. Indeed Labour won back some councils. It could have been worse. Writing in The Guardian on Friday former Minister Liam Byrne said "we won on substance and lost on style" But this analysis is fatally mistaken. We have lost 5 million voters since 1997, not because of Gordon Brown's smile but because we were no longer seen by many as a progressive party at all. The election campaign represented the nadir of the project. There was no message because New Labour no longer had a vision of the world it wanted to create. All the government could say was that it would secure the recovery. There were insufficient policies that connected to people's lives because those policies contradicted the fundamental New Labour assumption; that this is a conservative country and that the needs of the economy must always come first. We lost because the classic language of the democratic left, of ‘change' and ‘hope' were stolen from us by the right. But the politics of ‘one more heave' and no compromise with 71% of the electorate would be a fatal mistake for two further reasons.

First, because, as we predicted in the report The Last Labour Government, things could get a lot worse. The Tories will try to change the boundaries and reduce the number of Labour seats by 40, they will attempt to break the funding link with the unions; support for Scottish independence could rise; and public services, the BBC and the trade unions will come under relentless attack.

Second, because of the unexpected realignment of Britain's politics it is too early to make full sense of this strange coalition that might implode quickly or may last longer. Already some of their policy agenda, like the increase in capital gains tax, are very progressive. The nature of the deal shows how desperate David Cameron was to seize power and hold on to it. By bringing in the Liberal Democrats he has dramatically marginalised the right of his party. Nick Clegg too has taken a massive gamble that he will be determined to succeed. They have co-opted the likes of Will Hutton and Frank Field. This doesn't feel like ‘the same old Tories'. It could become a hegemonic force that - like Blairism - camping out on the centre ground, denying Labour space to renew. It could leave us in the wilderness for another 18 years. Labour could be in a very deep hole.

The scale of defeat and the uncertainty that has followed it means the Labour Party now has the time to engage in the kind of programme of institutional and policy transformation that Compass has long advocated. Labour must take time to decide on who leads it, to ensure transparency and full democratic participation. But crucially to understand the nature of the question now posed to us, before we attempt an answer through a new leader. Otherwise we face the possible mistake of a William Hague and then in an even worse panic an Iain Duncan Smith. As we take time and pause for breath there should be three interlinked elements to the wholesale renewal process of Labour; the Party's philosophy, programme and organisation.

Labour's vision must be of a good society; one that is more equal, sustainable and democratic; a world in which people individually and collectively can take control of their lives. It is a world in which capitalism must be managed in the interests of society, the state transformed and democratised and civil society empowered.

A new programme must be able to turn this desirable vision into a feasible reality. As we showed in Winning on the Doorstep, there is a huge programme of ideas that are both radical and popular; polices like a living wage, the separation of banking functions, controls on high pay, a financial transaction tax and much more. The transformation to a fully sustainable low-carbon economy must be fundamental, as must the commitment to proportional representation. We must outpace the Tories and Liberal Democrats so that on every issue Labour is the most progressive force in British politics.

Finally, in terms of organisation we need a Party that knows its members are the most valuable asset it has, a Party that is fully democratic inside and open to the rest of the world outside. It is already apparent that some local Labour Parties worked like this during the campaign and reaped the electoral rewards.

Such an all encompassing review could be the most fundamental assessment of a social democratic party conducted anywhere in the world, a root and branch renewal taking at least 18 months and reaching down into the party and out to the millions of progressives in civil society and the general public. Whoever leads Labour must be bound into the process and committed to implement its recommendations.

The problem of New Labour was that it was never new enough nor Labour enough. It dropped the commitment to a more equal society but it didn't drop the old politics of command and control. New Labour died because it was essentially an elite project; run by a few and never involving or trusting the many. Now we need a party that is genuinely new and authentically Labour; new because we know lasting change only comes from below, and because there are many complex new challenges we can only face together; and Labour because only through greater equality and solidarity can the majority have the means, individually and collectively, to achieve a better life and express real freedom to control their lives.

It is Labour that needs to change, not the people.

Change comes from the desire for a radically different society. Change comes from a movement that is prepared to fight and struggle for that dream. Change comes from persevering - never ever giving up. The centre-left and social democracy is still in the hole of the failures of socialism in both the East and West that became glaring apparent in 1970s and the subsequent rise of the new right and now its own crisis. We still live in those shadows as does the new coalition Lib Con government who may be popular for some time; but they will not stop the poor getting poorer, they will not stop our planet burning and they will not revive our democracy because that only happens when people are offered a better alternative to life as it is. Nothing transformative and enduring happens quickly. We are building from a low base. But nothing changes without a new hope.


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Comments

1 to 50 of 319
Posted by outrafesheere (Colonel Hill)
on 16 January 2012, 9:59:48 AM
Hi guys,
Can you help me to find popular dating sites: mens, womens, teens.
Thanks
Posted by Lee (Highlands)
on 04 June 2010, 2:36:04 PM
Jonathon Hawkes
Incidently Lee, far from causing Compass problems as you seem to think, the approach of sharing the nominations around to ensure that all six candidates get on the ballot, is being advocated by a current Compass campaign.
****************************************************************

The problem I referred to was Cruddas ENDORSING and clearly supporting Abbott. Having as many candidates on the slate is an entirely separate topic, about which I said nothing.
Posted by Jonathon Hawkes 
on 04 June 2010, 12:02:27 PM
Think you are reading a bit much into this. Jon Cruddas has said that he will be nominating Diane Abbott in the interests of ensuring that as many candidates get on the ballot as possible. It doesn't mean that he is voting for her - he may do, he may not. I expect, like many of us, he will wait to see what all the candidates say at the hustings.

Incidently Lee, far from causing Compass problems as you seem to think, the approach of sharing the nominations around to ensure that all six candidates get on the ballot, is being advocated by a current Compass campaign.
Posted by Brian Lynch 
on 04 June 2010, 11:58:16 AM
"Meet the next leader of the Labour Party“
As Pete Townsend once said "meet the new boss, same as the old boss"
Anyone pre ordering Lord Mandelson's book?
Posted by Robert (Swansea)
on 04 June 2010, 11:14:58 AM
You might for get what Trickett did and Cruddas, I cannot, the one thing a Politician seems to have less of these days is of course integrity.
Posted by frances 
on 04 June 2010, 10:10:04 AM
Jon trickett has already endorsed Dianne. it is fair enough just to get a contest. Well done to all of them.

Compass is coming home.
Posted by Lee (Highlands)
on 04 June 2010, 9:30:20 AM
At last, one glimmer of something faintly interesting may emerge from the dreariness of the Newlabour leadership campaign. If as is speculated on Labour List, Cruddas's endorsement of Diane Abbott is announced by lunchtime today, what will Compass do ? How will Compass stretch its respectable o-so-bourgeois Polly Toynbee mantle to embrace someone who actually strays into left wing territory from time to time ? I guess we are all like kids waiting for the firework display when the fireworks have all been rained on, and there is one little sparkler left.
Posted by Lee (Highlands)
on 04 June 2010, 9:17:34 AM
From the Times:

"Meet the next leader of the Labour Party: “Andy Balliband” a fortysomething Oxbridge-educated white male, who entered the Cabinet during the last Parliament and learnt his trade as a special adviser....Casual observers might be forgiven if they find it hard to tell the three of them apart. Not only do they have either the same first or second names, they also have similar backgrounds. All studied politics, philosophy and economics at Oxford in the 1980s, became student presidents of their colleges and later studied at Harvard. The most striking difference is in the political patrons they found in the late 1990s: the older Miliband went to work for Mr Blair, the two Eds became advisers to Mr Brown."





Posted by Lee (Highlands)
on 04 June 2010, 9:01:16 AM
There is so much fakery around, I am beginning to get an allergic reaction. You would think that by now I would be immune to Mandelson. I am disturbed by the ubiquitousness of the resort to "values", "principles", "things Newlabour stands for" etc in the public political debate. I believe these should be challenged strongly, directly, and mercilessly. Values, principles, integrity, are things that are either demonstrated by action, or observed my others. They are never authentically claimed by a person about himself. That is called posturing, and they should always be treated with the greatest of skepticism. Chris Agryris, the famous MIT professor, emphasised the guge distinction between "espoused values" (which can be taken as self-promotion) and "values-in-action" (values that are clearly visible in someone's behaviour). Britain has suffered in the last two decades a huge cultural deterioration, epitomised by the the media, in which "values", "principles" and "integrity" have become no more serious than the nipples on page three.

Values are about courage to confront power and fight for change against the status quo. If your values are the same as everyone else claims to have, they are utterly irrelevant and of no consequence. I dont want to hear about them.

So here is a challenge: and this would be a values-driven discussion in contrast to the drivel that we get from the Labour leadership candidates. I want to see all guns banned in Britain. My values tell me that no one has an inherent right to won or possess a lethal weapon. There will be occasions when society judges that the use of a gun is legitimate, maybe by the police but given their penchant for killing innocent people, I have doubts about that too. If society decides that some hunting is acceptable (I wouldnt, but that is another debate), hunters can rent guns at the hunting site, or have their personal guns locked up and released only when legitimate access has been adequately demonstrated. I do not buy the stupid argument that guns dont kill, people do..the same argument could be made about anthrax. Because there is now an unaccepotable risk that there are enough people who will kill if they had access to a gun, private gun-ownership ahould be banned. My values tell me that society will improve as a consequence. I dont think its a coincidence that the serial manic killing, once the prerogative of the most depraved dark heart of the USA, has now spread to China, Finland, and the UK. Cultures that glorify the military, war, guns, violent entertainment, are effectively degenerate, and will be reflected in violence on the streets and national attacks on other nations.

So here is my foray into values. None of the Newlabour hopefuls have the courage to engage in this kind of dicussion. I hope others will now have a say on whether they too see the candidates as besmirching and trivialising, for their own self-promotion, something that should be important in our understanding of one another and how society functions.

PS: What a bizzare time for Compass to go to sleep; but it wouldnt be a first.

Posted by Dugsie (Yorks)
on 04 June 2010, 8:56:19 AM
How many incarnations of New Labour will we have to endure ? I suggest that we need a ritual cleansing. A day each year on which an effigy of Lord Mandelson is placed on top of a burning fire. I've already started saving for my fireworks.
Posted by Robert (Swansea)
on 04 June 2010, 8:35:00 AM
It will be the voters that decide if new labour lives or dies, makes a come back under David Miliband, or in fact gives the Tories a new record of the longest serving party in history.

The one thing New labour has done is make people look at other parties the day of voting for a party for life is now over, people I think will look see and then vote for what they think Will be the best bet for them. Any party that now forgets the people can look out for a hung Parliament.
Posted by frances 
on 04 June 2010, 8:28:49 AM
Dead - then risen again in new clothes. No thank you.


'Lord Mandelson today said the New Labour project that he helped establish is "now over, and died on 6 May 2010".

Mandelson – who has not endorsed any of the candidates standing in the Labour leadership election – said he understood why the term New Labour might cease to be used by a new generation of potential leaders "who rightly wish to move on from the past".

But he insisted the concept that New Labour represented "should not be cast aside so easily".

He added that his book would offer some of the lessons learned from building New Labour, which he hoped others could learn from.

Writing in The Times, Mandelson said: "I am not arguing for the New Labour of [Tony] Blair, [Gordon] Brown and Mandelson to be preserved in aspic – that would be the opposite of the revisionist instincts that lay at the root of our project.

"This phase of New Labour is now over, and died on 6 May 2010. But the cast of mind that New Labour represents – aspirational, reforming, in touch and that faces up to the choices power demands – must not die with it if our party is to be a serious party of government again."'

Posted by Lee (Highlands)
on 04 June 2010, 7:59:11 AM
Thanks Stan, its nice to end on that note.
Posted by Robert 
on 03 June 2010, 11:59:41 PM
Brown said he get rid of all those immgrants....
Posted by Sane 
on 03 June 2010, 9:05:57 PM
Benitez has left Liverpool.
Posted by Stan Rosenthal 
on 03 June 2010, 7:43:24 PM
"Stan wont accept that Israel can ever be at fault"

As I said, Lee, you should read comments on this thread more carefully.

You will then note that I said I was against extremism on both sides, that I have been arguing with American Zionists about some of the extreme policies of Netenyahu, particularly his policy on settlements and that I have confirmed to Dugsie my wish to see these settlements dismantled as part of a peace deal.

I agree though that this topic, originally brought up by Robert and Lee, has overstayed its welcome on this thread .

Finally, I am glad that I can also agree with Lee on a two-state solution and that Livni may be helpful in achieving this.
Posted by Lee (Highlands)
on 03 June 2010, 7:03:13 PM
While it has been reafreshing discussing something beyond Britain's borders (something Compass diligently avoids doing), I do think that this is becoming gruesomely boring for others. All it has proven is that Stan is an apologist for Israeli criminal behaviour, and that while I am committed to finding a just solution which includes Israel's right to exist, Stan wont accept that Israel can ever be at fault. We are simply bas far across the political spectrum as it is possible to be. So, big deal. Everyone knew that already. Continuing this fruitless exchange will accomplish nothing, and I would like to stop.
Posted by Lee (Highlands)
on 03 June 2010, 6:58:01 PM
OK, folks, so you know. Every time in future that Stan uses the term "terrorist" its Robert's fault. He would NEVER use such a term himself, especially when discussing Palestinians, Arabs, and Iraqis.
Posted by Lee (Highlands)
on 03 June 2010, 6:54:40 PM
Frances: "My own theory is that Israel's real agenda is to carry this conflict on for ever until the Palestinians are so weakened and the Israeli settlers so established that they get most of the land and water. After all this has been the strategy since they first settled the original land and then after fifty years you can claim squatters rights. Why change a winning strategy?"
***************************************************************
That's pretty well it. Its a reenactment of the apartheid policies that Israeli right-wing politicians, who dominate Israeli politics, learnt from their former ally and model, apartheid South Africa.

Its too much even for David Miliband: "The attack by the Israeli defence forces on the Gaza Freedom Flotilla is the “latest in a series of self-defeating and deadly moves by successive Israeli Governments in Gaza,” Miliband said. “We on the Opposition Benches join the international condemnation of an operation that was not self-defence but defence of a failed policy,” he said in calling on the new British coalition government to use the same language, which he was previously reluctant to do.

You would think that Stan would realise when the game is up. But he is almost the last person in Britain to claim that Blair is a hero and the invasion of Iraq an heroic act. So why should we expect anything different on Israel. Its all part of a common ideology and world outlook.



Posted by Stan Rosenthal 
on 03 June 2010, 6:34:49 PM
"And I wont let Stan get away with his use of the term "terrorists"
*******************************************************
Er, it was Robert who brought this term into the dabate, Lee, arguing that he had "consistently denounced Hamas rocket attacks into Israel. I have categorised them as terrorism" in the context of his opinion that Israel had no right to stop missiles getting into Gaza if they were simply up against terrorists. I was just responding to his point.

Perhaps you should be reading these comments more carefully before you sound off.
Posted by frances 
on 03 June 2010, 6:09:13 PM
On London radio no one dare mention the Israeli/Palestine problem.
The Israeli supporters immediately hit the phones all saying exactly the same thing. They must get it e-mailed out to them. The radio programs have one from the Israeli side and one from the Palestinian side and its so predictable every one turns off.

Rational debate is drowned out and becomes impossible. Mostly it seems deadlocked.

What I do think is unhealthy is the votes in Western democracies that are single issue pro or anti Israel votes. It is mostly unseen and pressure is put on the politicians not to speak up against Israel.

My own theory is that Israel's real agenda is to carry this conflict on for ever until the Palestinians are so weakened and the Israeli settlers so established that they get most of the land and water. After all this has been the strategy since they first settled the original land and then after fifty years you can claim squatters rights. Why change a winning strategy?

Israel and its Western allies could settle this dispute tomorrow if they wanted to so I imagine as it shows no sign of ever ending that they don't want to and my theory fits the facts.

I'm not pro either side. I think Israel can only exist like the Falklands and Northern Ireland with outside help from stronger powers. It's always a deadlocked situation when a small besieged minority/plantation insist on standing up to much greater numbers with the aid of external support. History is calling the support more and more colonial and out of date. If the plantation don't adapt and make local friends it must end in tears.

Posted by Lee (Highlands)
on 03 June 2010, 6:02:24 PM
Stan: you know very well I was referring to the Israeli pretense of moving towards a peace settlement; and on that I stand by my words. Its behaviour has been equivalent to Mugabe's tricks with the opposition after he lost the election, but worse because the cheating and lying has gone on for decades.
Posted by Lee (Highlands)
on 03 June 2010, 5:58:46 PM
And I wont let Stan get away with his use of the term "terrorists" to suggest that Israel occupies a morally superior position, The people on the flotilla were civilians, so the Israeli attack and slaughter of these people is an act of terrorism. Israel is up to its neck in terrorist behaviour.
Posted by Stan Rosenthal 
on 03 June 2010, 5:55:45 PM
Oh come on Lee, you clearly said that what the Israelis have done is "the MOST dishonest, shameful act of chicanery, dishonesty, and immorality we have witnessed in our lifetimes"

Or maybe an Israeli agent provocateur has been doctoring your comments?
Posted by Lee (Highlands)
on 03 June 2010, 5:47:58 PM
Because Stan is playing his game trying to paint me as some kind of weirdo, I should put on record that although I believe that the foundation if Israel was highly partisan and discriminatory to the Palsetinians, I am not one of those who wish to see "Israel swept into the sea", which is the favourite way Israeli administrations divert attention from its crimes, and something I am sure Stan will accuse me of wanting to see happen. The essential logical, rational, moral starting point is the facts. All the territory Israel currently controls, occupies and settles, since its original borders were established after the UN Resolution, are illegal. Isreal has no legal or moral right to any of it. Israel has no concessions to offer, other than giving up territory within its original boundaries. Any settlement boundaries that includes land Israel grabbed since then, would be a concession by the Palestinians. But Israel and its backers have lied and misreprented so consistently, that it has left people believeing that anything Israel gives up now is an Israeli concession. That is neither factually correct, or rational. It's propaganda bullshit.

I used to be a strong supporter of a unitary state because I believed that would be the only way to correct the theft of land from the Palestinians were driven from their homes. But Israel is now so obviously dedicated to establishing an apartheid regime, that I have been persuaded that two parallel independent states will have to be established, and Palestine should have East Jerusalem as its capital. I am not opposed, in principle, to a settlement that includes land grabbed by the Israelis since its boundaries were established, as long as that is recognised as a Palestinian concession, as long as there is significant compensation and reparations for the loss of land and homes (it should be priced according to the Israeli commercial real estate market), and as long as the settlement is accepted in an open, adjudicated referendum of the Palestinian people. That means it would be sensible to carry out consultations and surveys as to what would be acceptable to Palestinians, before such a deal is finalised and put to a referendum. No doubt, America, which shares heavy responsibility for Israel's oppressive policies and theft of Palestinian land almost since the founding of Israel, will have to cough up billions of dollars. But that's OK because America is the one country that is never expected to pay its debts. It could borrow the money from China.

Any suggestion of a return to Camp David, Oslo, Road Map of any of the other schemes under which the scam has been perpetuated have to be finally, once and for all, off the table. Ideally, America needs to be kept as far away from the negotiations as possible, because it has nothing constructive to offer and its bias is blindingly obvious. The quartet should also be disbanded, in favour of a genuinely objective group of facilitators that will have to be independently acceptable to both sides. It is bound to include Nordics.

So there is a solution to this endless conflict and misery for the Palestinians, and the guy from Neasden can stay and prosper. But the continued scams that Obama has now inherited from Bush and continues unchanged, have to end. I hope that this time the international community will be clear and tough in its condemnation of Israel's criminal behaviour. Netanyahu is clearly unsuitable to run a falafel stand let alone a country. Much as I dislike Livni, I do believe that if she were to head up a ceter-left coalition, an authentic peace deal could be possible. It's not as if she has behaved honestly in the past. She has a great deal of blood on her hands. But unlike Netanyahu, who must be one of the most intellectually challenged people ever to hold public office, Livni has, in some of her speeches, shown signs that she understands the situation and the historic opportunity that it may present to her. But I may be wrong.
Posted by Stan Rosenthal 
on 03 June 2010, 5:42:16 PM
Typical nit-picking, logical-twisting nonsense from the anti-Israel brigade. If terrorists with state connivance lob missiles into Israel the Israelis are not entitled to stop missiles getting into Gaza. They can only defend themselves in this way if there is an all out war in which case the Israelis will get it in the kneck for a disproportionate response.

Maybe the armchair critics of Israel would be less prone to spouting siily academic speculations of this sort if they were at the receiving end of those rockets.
Posted by Lee (Highlands)
on 03 June 2010, 5:22:59 PM
"Stan: But, according to you, Lee, Israel tops the lot, which is rather going over the top don't you think - even for you.
*******************************************************************
Nonsense. I never said that, and you know it. Getting rather desperate ? "
******************************************************************

Here's the evidence that you did say that Lee , taken from a previous comment you sent in.

"Israel has been playing games with peace-makers, settling land in the interim, ignoring UN resolutions, and getting away with it. Its been the most dishonest, shameful act of chicanery, dishonesty, and immorality we have witnessed in our lifetimes"

But I'm sure you will try to wriggle out of it somehow.

*******************************************************************
Such bullshit, Stan. You claimed I was comparing Israel to the likes of Pol Pot. I said that the peace postures by Israel has been an immoral scam. When it comes to diplomatic dishonesty, Israel is right up there, but whether its worst is a matter of conjecture. But although Israel has murdered many Palestinians and Lebanese, I never claimed that its record compared to Pol Pot or the others you listed. You know that, and you too have been playing scam tricks. Rather apt, I would say.
Posted by Robert 
on 03 June 2010, 4:52:13 PM
httpDOT//www.socialistunityDOTcom/?p=6034

Every comments thread on every internet site on the world which has discussed the Israeli naval murders, has been inundated by organised ZIonist commenters stating that the Israeli action was legal under the San Remo Manual of International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea.

They ignore those parts of San Remo that specifically state that it is illegal to enforce a general blockade on an entire population. But even apart from that, San Remo simply does not apply.

The manual relates specifically to legal practice in time of war. With whom is Israel at war?

There is no war.

Israeli apologists have gone on to say they are in a state of armed conflict with Gaza.

Really? In that case, why do we continually hear Israeli complaints about rockets fired from Gaza into Israel? If it is the formal Israeli position that it is in a state of armed conflict with Gaza, then Gaza has every right to attack Israel with rockets.

But in fact, plainly to the whole world, the nature and frequency of Israeli complaints about rocket attacks gives evidence that Israel does not in fact believe that a situation of armed conflict exists.

Secondly, if Israel wishes to claim it is in a state of armed conflict with Gaza, then it must treat all of its Gazan prisoners as prisoners of war entitled to the protections of the Geneva Convention. If you are in a formal state of armed conflict, you cannot categorise your opponents as terrorists.

But again, it is plain for the world to see from its treatment and description of Gazan prisoners that it does not consider itself to be in a formal position of armed conflict.

Israel is seeking to pick and choose which bits of law applicable to armed conflict it applies, by accepting or not accepting it is in armed conflcit depending on the expediency of the moment.

I have consistently denounced Hamas rocket attacks into Israel. I have categorised them as terrorism. If Israel wishes now to declare it is in armed conflcit with Gaza, I withdraw my opposition and indeed would urge Hamas to step up such attacks to the maximum.

Does Israel really wish to justify its latest action by declaring it is at war with Gaza? That is what the invocation of San Remo amounts to.

Posted by Stan Rosenthal 
on 03 June 2010, 3:59:17 PM
"Stan: But, according to you, Lee, Israel tops the lot, which is rather going over the top don't you think - even for you.
*******************************************************************
Nonsense. I never said that, and you know it. Getting rather desperate ? "
******************************************************************

Here's the evidence that you did say that Lee , taken from a previous comment you sent in.

"Israel has been playing games with peace-makers, settling land in the interim, ignoring UN resolutions, and getting away with it. Its been the most dishonest, shameful act of chicanery, dishonesty, and immorality we have witnessed in our lifetimes"

But I'm sure you will try to wriggle out of it somehow.
Posted by Dugsie (Yorks)
on 03 June 2010, 3:47:05 PM
Frances
'I know before I start to read your posts which side will emerge as righteous and who will come out villains. I challenge you to present an argument where the other side comes out as the good guys.'

I used to do that on my extra-mural course in Derry. Everone was required to make a verbal presentation in the role of a political opponent. After the first term they shot me.

I don't think that the Palestine/Israel dispute relates much to logic in a formal sense.There are, however, elements of rationality and emotionality involved.Then there is the rationalisation of emotionality. Probably the most important element.
Posted by Lee (Highlands)
on 03 June 2010, 3:05:12 PM
Stan: But, according to you, Lee, Israel tops the lot, which is rather going over the top don't you think - even for you.
*******************************************************************
Nonsense. I never said that, and you know it. Getting rather desperate ?
Posted by frances 
on 03 June 2010, 2:59:51 PM
Stan says - 'That's what I mean about the need to apply facts and logic to these situations, Frances'

To apply logic you have to have premises that every one can accept and work forward from them without fear, favour or prejudice.

It is many, many years since any one involved in this conflict did that. What you do is produce cherry picked starting points that only one side accepts topped up with some local circular logic - you produce arguments designed to defend one side and cast the other in a negative light.

The Israeli PR machine does it, the Palestinian organisations do it, every one involved does it. It's part of the war.

I know before I start to read your posts which side will emerge as righteous and who will come out villains. I challenge you to present an argument where the other side comes out as the good guys.

Posted by Stan Rosenthal 
on 03 June 2010, 1:40:42 PM
But, according to you, Lee, Israel tops the lot, which is rather going over the top don't you think - even for you.
Posted by Lee (Highlands)
on 03 June 2010, 11:18:13 AM
Stan: These are well beyond scams and in are in no way relevant.

However, Stan, sticking to your list of atrocities, please add Tony Blair's responsibilty for the murder of over a hundred thousand innocent Iraqis to your list; the thousands of innocent people massacred in Aghanistan and Pakistan, America's massacres of innocent civilians in Vietnam, Korea, Cambodia, Laos, Guatemala, Panama, Grenada, Nicaragua, Serbia, Somalia; and Israel's massacres in Palestine and Lebanon. Ah, now the list is looking better and that will be good for Stan because he is Oh So ! concerned about accepting realities; and I feel confident he will rush to endorse the full list, as we is so dedicated to a balanced outlook.
Posted by Stan Rosenthal 
on 03 June 2010, 10:37:03 AM
" Israel has been playing games with peace-makers, settling land in the interim, ignoring UN resolutions, and getting away with it. Its been the most dishonest, shameful act of chicanery, dishonesty, and immorality we have witnessed in our lifetimes"

Really, Lee? How about the Holocaust, the Gulag, Mao's persecution of the Chinese peasants, the Japanese atrocities in South East Asia, Pol Pot, Mugabe's murder and starvation of his own people, Saddam Hussein's bloodstained record?

That's what I mean about the need to apply facts and logic to these situations, Frances.
Posted by Lee (Highlands)
on 03 June 2010, 9:29:38 AM
Dugsie has given a polite version of: its a scam and has been a scam for decades. Israel isnt interested in peace and has no intention of vacating land it grabbed and colonised by force. With American and UK connivance (especially Blair's), Israel has been playing games with peace-makers, settling land in the interim, ignoring UN resolutions, and getting away with it. Its been the most dishonest, shameful act of chicanery, dishonesty, and immorality we have witnessed in our lifetimes. There is no honour on the Israeli side, at least not since Rabin; and Netanyahu, who has open fascists in his government, has no intention of doing anything other than continuing the scam.
Posted by Dugsie (Yorks)
on 03 June 2010, 8:46:01 AM
There is, I hope, a certain amount of logic involved in our appraisal of this conflict. If Israel is continuing to settle land it occupies through previous conquest, then you can hardly expect a two state solution to be a viable prospect.Do they really want any kind of solution ?

There was one of Hilary's sidekicks on TV yesterday,an assistant secretary of state, saying that the USA required a full investigation of the recent battle, but was happy for the Israeli government to undertake it ! You have to admire their impartiality.
Posted by frances 
on 03 June 2010, 8:05:49 AM
Stan writes 'As for the arguments of others on this thread, I can of course throw counter-arguments back at them with interest on all the points they are making as I've done in the past. However I'm averse to continually repeating myself to minds that are made up and which so obviously do not wish to be confused by the facts and logical argument.'

Stan - logic isn't part of this. War doesn't work like that. War escalates and before long there are atrocities on both sides. The enemy become 'other'. Your own side become heroes. I don't believe in glorifying your own heroes and commemorating your own victories or all the glorious tribute that goes with war any more than I believe the 'other' are all wicked.

You have said you are a supporter of Israel and that is fair enough. You are supporting one side in a conflict that has been going on our entire life times. I respect that.

But I don't believe you are making a logical case. Logic is not part of war even when the PR machines claim to have a 'story' to tell.
Posted by Lee (Highlands)
on 03 June 2010, 7:20:58 AM
"Dugsie, I'm against hanging on to settlements in the territories gained as a result of the 1967 war, even though international law allows countries to retain territories acquired as a result of a defensive war against an aggressor."
**********************************************************
It is illegal to colonise and place settlements on such land
Posted by Stan Rosenthal 
on 02 June 2010, 9:25:17 PM
Dugsie, I'm against hanging on to settlements in the territories gained as a result of the 1967 war, even though international law allows countries to retain territories acquired as a result of a defensive war against an aggressor.

I do so because I think it is worth returning such land to countries which are prepared to agree a peace settlement with Israel, based on the recognition of Israel's right to exist, as has already happened with regard to the return of land to Egypt and Jordan.

It should be noted btw that Israel gave up Gaza even though there was no reciprocol agreement to recognise Israel. A fat lot of good it did them!
Posted by Sane 
on 02 June 2010, 7:53:34 PM
Today has been too shattering to arrogate to oneself the right to "have a go" even at deluded Mary.

I will copy and paste her missive and maybe carefully consider it a little later.

Stanny is not worth bothering with... he might as well be Burchill.
Posted by Dugsie (Yorks)
on 02 June 2010, 7:53:09 PM
Stan

What is your position on the settlement of the occupied territories, taking account of international law ?
Posted by Stan Rosenthal 
on 02 June 2010, 6:00:57 PM
Mary, I introduced the Hitler analogy to show that those who vote in governments sworn to aggressive action against their neighbours cannot escape the consequences of their government's actions. This is an obvious fact not a pitch for the Holocaust sympathy vote, and applies to any country whether it be Gaza or Israel come to that (which is why I'm so opposed to the extremists in Israel as well). The trick of course is to distinguish between what is aggressive and what is defensive which is why I am so keen on doing my homework on these matters before jumping to conclusions (unlike others).

If there is an apartheid-like racist element to Israel's policies I will oppose them too (after doing that homework on them). I agree that there is a kind of racism in the views of some of the settlers and my attitude to them is the same as my attitude to Islamic and Christian fundamentalists who regard others as infidels worthy of Hell -fire.

As for the arguments of others on this thread, I can of course throw counter-arguments back at them with interest on all the points they are making as I've done in the past. However I'm averse to continually repeating myself to minds that are made up and which so obviously do not wish to be confused by the facts and logical argument.
Posted by Lee (Highlands)
on 02 June 2010, 10:28:49 AM

Mary: It could be said that some Israeli policies are in themselves racist in effect if not in intention.
And some of the settlers, usually from the U.S or Russia, seem to have some very unpleasant notions as to 'racial indentity and purity' themselves.
****************************************************************
Mary, because my South African Jewish family split into pro-zionists and anti-zionists, I was able to live among and understand first hand the nature of zionism. Many Jews in South Africa fought bravely against apartheid, as did my family (we were stripped of our citizenship and exiled for that). They deserve great credit and are among the white heroes of liberated South Africa.

However, the pro-zionists were largely very tolerant or, or strongly supportive of apartheid. Even in those days, back in the 1960s, many zionist South Africans lived part of their time in SA, and part in Telaviv. Many were active in sanctions-busting, helping to repackage South African exports, and cooperating with Taiwanese distributers of apartheid produce. During apartheid, IUsrael was South Africa's strongest ally, cooperated on nuclear technology, and took over many apartheid policies to implement in Israel. Many of these people were as racist as the pro-apartheid Afrikaaners (and not all of them by any means supported apartheid); and when Mandela came to power, they fled to Israel to escape black rule. You will often hear South African accents, as was the case yesterday on the BBC, when "Israeli spokespersons" make statements on behalf of the Netanyahu government. Racist South African Jews have found a flourishing home in Likkud, some of the facist religious parties, and in racist settler communities. I know many of them by name because I grew up and went to school with them.
Posted by Lee (Highlands)
on 02 June 2010, 10:17:02 AM
Unfortunately for Stan, he knows about my past, and therefore knows that I was born to a Jewish family in South Africa. So he cant call me an "anti-semite", the favourite trick of zionist apologists. He can, of course, call me a "self-hating Jew". When I post on Israel, I NEVER mention the word Jew, because it is utterly irrelevant. Most Jews live outside of Israel, a large proportion are strongly anti-zionist, as I am. It is only zionists and genuine anti-semites who confound "Israel" with "Jew".

On the Hamas rockets...we are so terrified of all the rubbish Blair stirred up, that we seem to forget what "terrorism" means. It is a violent act or threat against civilians to achieve a political purpose. Terrorism is not restricted to any one group or nation. Israeli zionists have been terrorists. When the US bombed Falluja and Hiroshima, these were classical terrorist acts. When Mkonto Insizwe bombed a shopping center in Johannesburg, that was terrorist. The Hamas rockets are a terrorist act, as was the Israeli bull-dozing of Rafa. Terrorists always try to justify their acts. That is a tall order, especially when the terrorists, like Israel or America, hold all the power.

I have never read any serious commentator who praises, excuses, or justifies terrorism, because an act against civilians cannot be praised, excused, or justified. It should be possible to comment on terrorist acts and to ask how they can be avoided. When a group who has suffered serious social injustice, and has no power, and is being ignored, it is very likely that it will engage in terrorism. The easiest way to prevent that happening, its to take notice of and try to remedy the social injustice. But the Israeli Government has no desire at all to end terrorist acts. It welcomes them because it can use them as propaganda to justify what they are doing to the Palestinians. Sharon provocatively visited the Temple Mount exactly to provoke a terrorist reaction, and he got the intifada which was exactly what he had planned. Its the oldest trick in the book, and is by no means restricted to Israel. All miltarist nations have taken steps to trigger terrorist responses so that they can justify what they had already planned to do.

My guess is that Stan will try irony again, because he doesnt have much else left.
Posted by Mary 
on 02 June 2010, 10:14:45 AM
Don't forget that the Tories will well bang on about a debt created under Blue Labour. This exaggerates it.
(Sane)

Could you please produce evidence to substantiate the above contention?
How much do you estimate the Public Sector Debt to really be?

This is far too important an issue -jobs and welfare spending depend on it - for you to make subjective assertions.
Proof of your claim, please, and not from some Trot comic -book.
Afeter all, the Tories didn't suddenly invent the deficit.

Stan....whenever anyone criticises Israeli policy one runs the risk of being labelled an anti-Semite or 'self-hating Jew'.
I'm no way accusing you of that but I can't see the relevance of invoking the ghost of Hitler.
It could be said that some Israeli policies are in themselves racist in effect if not in intention.
And some of the settlers, usually from the U.S or Russia, seem to have some very unpleasant notions as to 'racial indentity and purity' themselves.
It is very difficult to conduct a discussion of the Middle Eastern situation without someone bringing up these accusations but it can -and must -be done.

Posted by Mary 
on 02 June 2010, 10:03:53 AM
As for where I am, I believe i am with the intelligent head of social democracy. I believe that were the people presented with a believable programme of social democracy, most would vote for it. Maybe not now, but someday before too long.
(Sane)

To show that you have a brain too albeit a developing one (!) I'd like to ask some direct questions.
1) I'd like your definition of 'social democracy'. How does it fit with your self-characterisation as a red heart beating leftist?
Are you refusing any self definition containing the word' socialist' now?
2) Why in your opinion do the electorate refuse any left programme when presented to them? Even in 1983 with millions on the dole Thatcher was voted back into power.
3) Do you accept that with or without PR coalitions will be a standard feature of the UK political scene? If so, how do you rate the chances of a radical programme of the kind you would presumably advocate being adopted? (You have made no constructive proposals for such a programme so we have to surmise).
4) What is your position on public ownership?

That will do for now. Questions about how to reduce the deficit will come later.Answers NOT on a postcard, please, but coherently and concisely stated.

If you read my posts carefully you will see that contrary to what you say, I expressed respect for Lee...at last, when he posted constructively and it became apparent that we agree in some measure as to means if not ends. I disagreed strongly and still do to some of the phraseology he used.
I give respect where and when it's due.

The point of this thread as I understand it is to debate and discuss the way forward for Labour -whether Old, New or Next.
If we are to do so in any meaningful way we cannot turn our backs on reality. Yes there is inequality and associated social evils. But the fact remains that political reformism and a huge rise in the material standard of living have created a society in which the better-off two-thirds of people -working people -have to be convinced of the need for action against the manifold injustices that still blight our society.
You have to bring these people with you and it will be more difficult to do so under future political and economic cicumstances.
Failure to realise the essential small 'c' conservatism of the British electorate renders any radical programme doomed to failure.
The next Labour Leader will hopefully be someone who genuinely leads and can teach without preaching. And someone who is capable of convincing the electorate to put their x in the 'right' box.

AS for your surprise as to my views on the Israel/Palestinian conflict: that says more about your inexperience and tunnel vision than any perception or 'radicalism' on my part, old son.
Posted by Lee (Highlands)
on 02 June 2010, 9:51:55 AM
Stuart
Obama has shown his leadership is weak and he has no power to take on the oil conglomorates. Very disappointing
*************************************************************
Stuart, Obama has never had any intention of taking on the oil conglomerates. He is as much a champion of the coporate state as Bush. He is only screaming now because he doesnt know what else to do. If you really believed that Obama was going to curb the power of oil corporations or any other corporations, you have been misled. Obama opened off-shore areas for drilling that even the Bush administration had kept closed; and after he recently announced a temporary moritorium on new drilling permits, it has been discovered that he has been issuing permits under the table. The man is no different in reality to those he replaced. He talks the talk but never walks the walk. Like his predecessors, he is all ego and now that that has been badly dented, he is stamping his foot like a teenage girl in a tizz.
Posted by frances 
on 02 June 2010, 9:08:09 AM
'It is for Turkey, not Israel, to carry out any inquiry or investigation into events and to initiate any prosecutions'

Which is probably why the families of Israeli diplomats in Turkey are being flown home this morning.
Posted by Lee (Highlands)
on 02 June 2010, 6:07:24 AM
Robert, Sane, and others, thanks for pointing out the fatal flaw in all of Stan's propaganda. The Israelis are illegally occupying Palestinian land and have built an illegal Berlin-style wall around their illegal settlements. The last legal, albeit unfortunate and morally dubious act on Israel's boundaries occurred after the UN was bullied by the colonial powers into founding Israel. Thereafter, every acquisition of territory by Israel has been illegal. Given that, it follows very logically, that blockading Gaza is illegal too, and as it is illegal, the flotilla had every legal as well as moral right to bring supplies to a population that is being deliberately starved. Gaza is a concentration camp surrounded by Israeli might. As others have said, the response from the Palestinians, firing a few rockets, is in moral terms, understandable even if unfortunate; and in legal terms the equivalent of the Jewish rebellion in the Warsaw ghetto. If, of course, like ultrazionists, you dont regard Palestinians as human (it would be interesting to see where Stan stands on this point), then your response will be similar to what happened in the Warsaw Ghetto.

Stan raised Hitler. Its almost a crime to use the word "Hitler" in any sentence containing the word "Israel"; but as he has done it, let me point out that Hitler too defended his policies by claiming that Germany was under existential threat from evil forces outside, and that what he was doing was purely done to save the legitimate rights of the German people. Oldest trick in the book. You invade somewhere, you throw the inhabitants out, and then you say you are under threat. To quote the old granny on Catherine Tate: "What a fucking liberty !!"

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