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Read Jon Cruddas' Summer Lecture in full

Wednesday, September 09 2009

We are at a historic turning point. The electoral successes of the last decade have been unprecedented, but underneath lies a deeper story – of profound economic and social change and the breakdown of no-end of assumptions and political orthodoxies.

Put simply: what does Labour stand for any more?

There are plenty of initiatives and announcements, but no sense of animating purpose - and thus, as yet, no compelling case for re-election. Whether Labour remains in government or returns to opposition, we need a fundamental re-assessment of its identity - the kind of society it hopes to build.

Why? Because such periods economic and social change produce major political re-alignments.

This creates opportunities for Labour to reach out and join new coalitions yet it also spells real danger. To survive and grow we must anticipate such changes. At such times, we need a sense of our own history. Not just the electoral success and failures of the party itself, but a history of our own ideas and how they have shaped the party.

First, consider what Labour has lost- its traditional class, its paradigm and its optimism.

From constituency meetings attended by dwindling numbers of committed activists; up through the council chambers of great cities that we no longer govern; up through the dazed and disorientated Parliamentary Party; and to the very centre of government, one thing is increasingly clear. A sense of loss pervades the Labour Party. It is almost palpable. Not just of power sliding away, but a more profound loss: one relating to our essential mission - our very identity.

To start with, consider two losses.

First, the politics of Labour has been fundamentally altered by radical changes in the working class, its culture and institutions over the last four decades. Fifty years ago Raymond Williams published a short essay called ‘Culture is Ordinary'. It begins with an elegy to his working class boyhood in the farming valleys of the Black Mountains and the generations of his family who had lived there.

It is a beautiful piece of writing- poetic and humane. Williams describes a way of life which emphasized neighbourhood, mutual obligation and common betterment. It is a story of pride and dignity familiar to the core of the Labour Party. It is central to our historic identity and our resilience; it gave us meaning. Williams knew that this culture was shaped by the underlying system of production. He recalls how from the mountains he could look south to the "flare of the blast furnace making a second sunset."

He wrote at a time when his class was already undergoing momentous change, but he could not have imagined the day when there would be no second sunset. After that, what would come next? The question remains.

Consider a second loss - Anthony Crosland's model of social democracy. The Future of Socialism (1956) was for many of us always out there on the horizon - a revisionist answer to orthodox Marxism whilst also an assault on the foundations of market economics neo-classical theory. It was an intellectual cornerstone for a social democracy built on tax receipts from capitalist progress, an interventionist nation state and of class reconciliation through growth.

It was dealt a near fatal blow when the Labour Government went to the IMF. Gordon Brown re-invented a derivative for New Labour privileging the City and the financial markets and skimming their profits for the Exchequer.

That model is now lost. Fifteen years - sixty uninterrupted quarters of growth - have gone. We were able to swerve around the big distributional issues - and indeed the laws of politics - given the supposed end to boom and bust. We are now six quarters into a politics for more austere times. And despite the heroics of the Treasury, within the government more generally the sense of loss is acute. What comes next - silence.

Now consider a third loss - our optimism.

Unwittingly, the most telling description of what New Labour lost was contained within its own bible: Philip Gould's The Unfinished Revolution. He makes a revealing distinction when he described his parents as having "wanted to do what was right, not what was aspirational".

The possibility that these two categories were not mutually exclusive was never entertained.

It is hardly surprising that in the psephological models Gould invented to map out New Labour's route to power, such as Mondeo Man and Worcester Woman we find our old friend Rational Economic Man resurrected in modern garb - the foundation of right wing political economy through the ages.

In this view of what it is to be human, aspiration consists of the impulse to accumulate and consume without regard to the consequences for others or any sense of responsibility to society as a whole. Here people are considered as individualistic, unsentimental, ruthlessly self-interested; that the electorate - or at least the section of it that counted - held fast to a rationality that verged on the misanthropic.

By 2001, New Labour's policies were essentially based on a mythical ‘Middle England', drawn up by the pollsters and located somewhere in the South East, built around continuous growth and affluence and where politics always had to be individualised.

A leading Cabinet member claimed that Labour's essential message was to help more people ‘earn and own'. We believed it would only respond to a sour, illiberal politics about consuming more, rather than deeper ideas; of fraternity; of collective experience; and what it is we aspire to be as a nation. To put this simply, we assumed the worst of the British people. But this viewpoint was neither accidental and for certain it was not original.

Thomas Hobbes, for example, assumed self-interest to be the only guiding principle; kindness a virtue for losers. Think the rationality of classical economics. Think the Selfish Gene. Think Ayn Rand. Before his death Michel Foucault wrote a series of brilliant lectures describing how this type of political economy becomes ‘biopolitical'; how its hollowed out conception of the human being - In terms of what we aspire - comes to be seen as natural.

A number of things flowed from our embrace of these assumptions. The idea that voters could be persuaded that higher taxes were a price worth paying for an improvement in public goods was dismissed. Even tax rises for the very richest were ruled out, since every rationally aspiring voter hoped to reach the top income bracket and might one day get stung.

Public and open recognition of the redistribution of wealth and income was out. New Labour, we were told, was "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich". From the mouth of Mandelson, we got the wisdom of Mandeville: private vice is public benefit.

And at the end of that road, lay a completely empty vision of centre-left politics, where aspiration would be reduced to a notion of acquisition, materialism would be all we had.

What we lost was optimism.

Richard Rorty once wrote that "the best way to cause people long-lasting pain is to humiliate them by making the things that seemed most important to them look futile, obsolete and powerless." This is the experience many ex-Labour voters describe. To use dry terms like disconnection is to underestimate the seriousness of what they feel:

Real pain and loss; because the very optimism of progressive politics appears to have been lost from a party that, at its best, was once a byword for it. The psychoanalyst Erik Erickson once said, quite simply, that "hope is the basic ingredient of all vitality". It is hope that has to be rediscovered - through a renewed optimism.

Now consider The Three Crises of Labour

Consider the popular vote of the party at every election since 1900. The conclusion is straightforward. Labour has faced two periods of real crisis and now stands on the verge of a third.

The first followed the crash of 1929, and the collapse of the second Labour government as MacDonald, Thomas and Snowden entered the National Government.

The second came with Labour's loss of power in 1979, the Thatcherite ascendancy and our threatened eclipse by a new third party in the early 1980s.

Now, a third crisis is imminent. If the decline in Labour's fortunes since 1997 continues, this latest watershed will occur following next year's election - and history suggests that it will be every bit as dramatic.

It took nearly 15 years for Labour to return to power following the first two crises and the resultant election defeats of 1931 and 1983.

What the graph shows is that the history of Labour since 1900 is a story of a birth and three crises. Each of these four key moments occurs at periods of profound economic change. The formation of the party came during the change from the Victorian to the Edwardian era.

The three political crises that have defined so much of Labour's story immediately followed the fundamental economic turning points of the next 110 years:

-The Wall Street Crash

-The destruction of of the post-war consensus, and emergence of neo-liberalism

- And, to bring things up to date, the global economic collapse of 2008.

The graph also shows us a strong inverse relationship between Liberal and Labour voting shares at these historic pinch points.

At every major historic turning point over the last 110 years there have been major political re-alignments; the birth of new parties, the death of others and the forging of new coalitions.

Now if you look through the writings of various ‘long wave' theorists- Schumpeter, Hyman Minsky, Kondratiev - they all link periods of economic and social crisis to periods of major technological change and financial speculation. All tend to focus on the 1890s, and 1929 whilst later disciples highlight the late 1970s and September 2008. Carlota Perez for example, historically highlights how these ‘Turning points' create political openings for social democracy.

Where a new politics of equality, sustainability and well-being become feasible; a new Golden Age. But feasibility is not necessity - and even if there is this possibility, the forces of selfish individualism can entrench their position. Perez says we are at just such a turning point now.

Yet we should be very cautious here. History also tells us that since its actual birth, Labour has a terrible record at such turning points - of 1931, 1979, and here today since 2008 - indeed they tally precisely with its 3 moments of crisis. Is this because from its very inception Labour has been plagued by a fundamental fault line between its orthodoxy and radicalism which is especially acute at moments of crisis?

I would suggest also - that this is not a left - right factional split but it is about building a radical agenda that can shape such historic moments - think for example of Margaret Thatcher. This tension can be detected throughout the history of the Party - in the frustrations of our leaders at times of retreat. Soon after its formation, Keir Hardie argued that Labour had "its conscience dulled by lust of power to that sense of justice which is the salt of national life, it reels towards its doom". Twenty Five years later Tawney describes - after retreat in national government - how the government "did not fall with a crash, in a tornado from the blue. But crawled slowly to its doom". His words echo down from the past - through Bevan, Kinnock and indeed early Blair when railing against party orthodoxy.

"The gravest weakness of British Labour is... its lack of creed. The Labour Party is hesitant in action, because divided in mind. It does not achieve what it could, because it does not know what it wants". There is, he says, a "void in the mind of the Labour Party" which leads us into "intellectual timidity, conservatism, conventionality, which keeps policy trailing tardily in the rear of realities."

So where do we go?

Let's start with a return to our relationship to other traditions - notably liberalism.

It is wrong to think of socialism as a tradition that stands in opposition to liberalism. Yet we need to be very clear about which aspects of the liberal tradition Labour can usefully embrace as its own. Mark Garnett identified two rival modes of liberal thought; one he described as ‘fleshed-out', the other ‘hollowed-out'. In its extreme laissez-faire variant, classical ‘hollowed out' liberalism assumes a model of human behaviour that is rational, acquisitive and ruthlessly self-interested.

In contrast, ‘fleshed out' New Liberalism was developed by the idealist philosopher T.H. Green, and taken up by L.T. Hobhouse and J.A. Hobson; it was optimistic. Hobhouse said: "We want a new spirit in economics - the spirit of mutual help, the sense of a common good. We want each man to feel that his daily work is a service to his kind, and that idleness and anti-social work are a disgrace."

These thinkers are rightly considered to be pioneers of the British tradition of ethical socialism. Their influence over the leading Labour intellectuals of the early twentieth century - Tawney, Cole and Laski - was both profound and freely acknowledged.

The New Liberals did a great deal to change liberal assumptions in a progressive direction, but their ideas were always contested within that tradition. The efforts of the Orange Book faction of the Liberal Democrats to restore the principles of classical liberalism show that they still are today. At a rhetorical level New Labour certainly talked in suitably fleshed-out terms about the need to restore community spirit and create a more inclusive society. It also acted to strengthen public services, tackle poverty and end social exclusion.

My contention is not to deny the many great things achieved by the government, nor the commitment of its representatives. But if New Labour at its best embodied the high aspirations of ‘fleshed-out' liberalism, its restricted understanding of the scope for change betrayed the cynical assumptions of its hollowed-out alter ego. It talked quite rightly about the need for the party to broaden its appeal to win the support of ‘aspirational' voters, but equated aspiration with nothing more than crude acquisitiveness.

This sucked out its optimism and its radicalism - yet that reality was disguised by the proceeds of growth.

There is much discussion in and around Labour about rebuilding its relationship with Liberalism. However a real danger exists in seeking to reunite the wrong elements of both - of reuniting the worst elements of New Labour with hollowed out classical liberal tradition. Yet alternative traditions have always existed; in Labour, Liberalism and far beyond.

Ones which are more optimistic. It is not the world of selfish beasts and Thomas Hobbes; of selfish genes, atomised exchange, neo-classical economics - the aspiration to ‘earn and own'. It is the world of the individual embedded in social relationship dating back to Aristotle; a world of fraternity and empathy.

In literature consider the Romantics criticisms of the rationality of market economics. In politics it spans Rousseau and the early Marx, Keir Hardie and our own non-conformist tradition; of ethical and indeed faith based socialisms. Less scientific, more a language of generosity and kindness; very much alive within much contemporary debates within psychology, sociology and neuroscience.

Less Ayn Rand more David Hume. It is also a tradition at work within radical Liberalism. It is a politics of fellowship and solidarity and a sense of obligation to others. It would recognise people's need for security, to feel a sense of belonging and the experience of respect and self-esteem.

Where public services that thrive on an ethic of care. With a civic culture that rewards generosity; a society that values reciprocity over competition - it nurtures what Bevan used to define as serenity. Yet as the late G.A. Cohen argues in a book published posthumously, Why Not Socialism?, the problem is one of design. The technology for giving primacy to our acquisitive and selfish desires already exists in the form of a capitalist market economy.

But we have not yet adequately devised the social technology capable of giving fullest expression to the generous and altruistic side of our personality. That is the main task of the future left. It means new political alliances. Alliances of this kind are not at odds with Labour's traditions. Think of our support for the radical elements of the 1906 Liberal government; think of Sir Charles Dilke unofficial chair of the ‘social radicals'; think of the influence of social liberalism on the 1945 Labour Government.

At its best, Labour has been at the heart of broader social and cultural movements. Again, think of Hardie and his alliances with suffragettes, anti imperialist struggles, peace movements and colonial nationalism. Later think of 1945, then the major liberal initiates of Labour from 1964-1970; think of the coalition secured by Blair from 1994-2001. It is when Labour's orthodoxy wins out that it retreats from such movements - often at moments of crisis.

But what might be the programme?

Let's start with four pillars: Equality, Community, Sustainability and Democracy.

We stand for equality because it is the precondition for the liberty of all and that is about social justice. The more resources you have the more courses of action are open to you. As Richard Tawney argues, liberty is "equality in action".

The American economist Robert Frank details how higher inequality leads to increasingly extravagant expenditure and consumption patterns at the top. This creates "expenditure cascades" and "positional arms races" that drive up the cost of living for middle class consumers. The motivating force behind this dynamic is not envy, but the desire to keep up with changing norms of consumption and lifestyle being driven from above.

Also think how the impact of inequality on the poor affects the well-being of others. Collapsing social mobility has created an underclass that is acutely aware of its poor economic prospects and seeks various forms of escapism to compensate; some benign, many malign.

As such we must seek equality of human dignity and moral worth. In a society based on the principle of fellowship, no group of individuals should be so rich or poor that they are able or forced to live as a class apart.

The aim is not to impose uniformity of material condition. It is a society in which differences of wealth and income are contained within limits that allow the individuals to relate to each other in a spirit of mutual regard.

This lies behind the thinking of the Compass High Pay Commission - of which you will hear a lot over the coming months. It lies behind the need for greater tax justice where we all contribute fairly. It lies behind the need to close tax havens. A radical overhaul of the system to build a more equal distribution of income and wealth. It lies behind reasons why we should index link benefit levels, pensions and the minimum wage to movements in average incomes. It is why we must intensify efforts to end child poverty. It lies behind support for the Equality Bill. And the need to reconsider a graduate tax. It lies behind the need to defend and redefine a European Social Model under attack in the European Court of Justice. It lies behind why we should have a Fair Employment Clause in all public contracts - to use the power of procurement to challenge race, class and gender inequalities amongst the working poor. It lies behind windfall and transaction taxes and resetting capital gains tax.

Before the Autumn Statement, Compass will launch a radical programme to reconfigure tax and expenditure plans in a search for greater distributive justice.

Karl Polanyi described the "double movement of capitalism". On the one hand the market destroys old social networks and reduces all human relations to commercial ones yet on the other is the "counter tendency to defend human values, the search for community and security".

Community brings together equality and liberty because it is about fraternity and interdependence. Community is a rejection of the logic of the market. It is about the mutual nature of human relationships: "I give because you need".

We no longer live in communities in which people share the same customs and culture. But the ideal of community with its ethics of reciprocity and solidarity remains as powerful as ever - especially at moments of crisis. We seek a mutual respect that grants self-esteem, and creates a sense of belonging.

Today neuroscience and research into brain development confirm their view that human beings only fully develop and flourish within social relationships. This reasoning lies behind the need to build the care economy, for all generations, at a local level with a special focus on early years, support for carers and the elderly.

It lies behind the need to a housing crusade - rebuilding the mixed economy through massive investment in social housing as nearly five million are in need of a home for rent. It lies behind the need to genuinely free up local authorities to borrow and invest in local priorities. Local bond finance for local infrastructure. The reform of local taxation. Too often centralised funding streams and prescriptions have warped our search for equality.

It means we need to reconnect the excluded and rebuild trust across communities - for example a regularisation of those who have no status and suffer appalling poverty and degradation from landlords, employers and criminal gangs. It means great help for those communities - often the poorest - who have experienced tremendous change through unparalleled levels of immigration. Off the radar of Westminster who remain attached to a completely out of date census.

This search for community and security also implies a new covenant with the military - to improve the working lives of service men and women. More mental healthcare, equipment, housing and support for our veterans. Why not pay for it by scrapping Trident. It implies more front line policing, more youth outreach centres and an expansion of restorative justice and family conferencing.

Global warming is threatening the planet. We are approaching the ‘topping-out point' of oil - the peak of production, after which nothing. The world is facing a crisis in food production and widespread shortages of water. The politics of climate change shows that our inter-dependency goes beyond our fellow human beings to include the Earth's biosphere.

Stern highlighted the "the greatest market failure in human history". Young people are already joining up these dots. They are joining and leading the emerging climate movement.

Like the early socialism, the new ecological movements are making politics personal and moral. They are asking the important questions about the ways we live and what it means to be human. We need to marry up the core values of the greens and the Labour movement and join the dots between democracy, equality and ecological sustainability. The ecological crisis, like the economic crisis is hitting the people Labour was founded to protect. Social democracy must be built on sustainable foundations and global economic recovery has to be low-carbon. Transforming economies needs strong, strategic state intervention.

By harnessing the wind and the waves, we can move toward energy independence. We can build on the ingenuity in our universities and the skills of our graduates to create millions of new green jobs and restore the place of British manufacturing in the world.

It lies behind support for Ed Miliband and his progressive targets and installation targets. It lies behind the Green New Deal, creating employment opportunities for young people. Why we should ensure that by 2020, the UK is generating at least 15% of its energy - heat, electricity and transport - from renewable sources. Why we should introduce tough new emissions performance standards for power stations. Prevent unsustainable aviation growth wiping out carbon reductions made in other sectors by ending the expansion of UK airports - including the runway at Heathrow. It lies behind creating a new green industrial activism for the 21st century. It lies behind developing an integrated transport policy. It's what lies behind why we should commit Britain to an unprecedented civil mobilisation against global warming.

To build equality, to create community, and to secure a sustainable future we must strengthen our democracy. We need constitutional change and proportional representation - to push power out of Whitehall and closer to the people.

The economic crisis partly arises from the failure of democracy to properly regulate the banks and markets. We should consider mutualising those parts of the finance sector currently under state control and learn from Australia regarding new forms of regulated superannuation.

Our public services need democracy, the choice agenda is not enough. The economy and our workplaces need democracy. Business and industry must be accountable to their employees and wider stakeholders. Wider more resilient forms of share-ownership are necessary. This lies behind the need for a radical economic democracy - for example a universal banking obligation with new institutions to offer decent financial products to all of our communities, controls on usury and a Credit card Bill of Rights for consumers.

To return to where we started.

Raymond Williams one said: "To be truly radical is to make hope possible rather than despair convincing". Many now feel despair. We feel great loss. The things that we took as given have abruptly gone - like growth. At such moments hope is key to avoid despair.

Our history tells us that these turning points are dangerous moments; if we retreat. We must contest this turning point. We can still win. My argument is not simply an argument about Labour; this is not about internal issues. Think for a moment about the Tories.

Earlier I talked about how declining economic growth has lost Labour its revisionist mode. But this is the same for the Tories. Cameron's ‘Progressive Conservatism' was built on the assumption of sharing the proceeds of growth; that the Thatcherite early 80s resolved all the issues of economics. Yet when the first economic storm clouds gathered they retreated.

Think about what is emerging. Think about how despite the empathy everything coming out from the Centre for Social Justice is punitive. Think about the party of Daniel Hannan. Not some side show but a man whose central philosophy is hardwired into the mindset of the young Tories. Think about their laboratories in Hammersmith, in Essex and in Barnet. It tells us of the brutality that lies ahead - the notion of ‘easycouncil'; of social care and housing cuts in west London; of a fundamental assault on local authorities wrapped up in the language of quangos. Just think of this weekend's stories of regionalised benefits, mass privatisations and across the board cuts. Last week they signalled a moratorium on new house building. Look who leads their group in Europe. Think and explore the Wisconsin benefits model. Look at the glint in there eye when they talk about cuts; the relish.

Why is it that after a summer in which the Tories have shown their true colours, we have barely laid a glove on them? Why is it that this Thatcherism has grabbed so easily the mantle of progressivism?

I would suggest it is because we have lost our language, our empathy our generosity; because we have retreated into a philosophical framework of the right. This is not an internal debate at all. It is about protecting the most vulnerable through proudly defending a notion of a modern social democracy It is only be returning to our traditions, our language and our radicalism that we can confront this very dangerous force; build an authentic political fight built around a fundamentally different approach to society and humanity.

We can still win.

Consider two final quotes

"Believe in the possibility of building up a sane and ordered society, to oppose the squalid materialism that dominates the world today, and to hold out their hands in friendship and good will to the struggling people everywhere who want only freedom, security and a happier life".

And try this:

"A nation for all the people, built by the people, where old divisions are cast out. A new spirit in the nation based on working together, unity, solidarity, partnership. That is the patriotism of the future. Where your child in distress is my child; your parent ill and in pain is my parent; your friend unemployed or homeless is my friend; your neighbour my neighbour. That is the true patriotism of a nation".

One was Tony Blair in 1994, the other, The Manifesto of the Labour Party in 1923. We need to rediscover that spirit of social democracy. It is an imperative - or else we will go down to catastrophic defeat and deserve to.

Or else millions of vulnerable people will suffer at the hands of a nasty, extremist party that lies just beneath the veneer.

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Comments

1 to 50 of 111
Posted by Hot blondes (Dakota)
on 13 February 2011, 3:12:11 AM

Live every day as though it were your last.
Posted by Brian Lynch (Carnoustie)
on 21 September 2009, 3:39:28 PM
Presumably the whole Labour front bench (present and ex - Mr Purnell) will be attending the funeral.
Frances, anything the banks, big business, Rupert or James Murdoch tell then to do they will jump to it. They are still broken hearted over the loss of Milton Friedman, that is the real reason why Brown is so miserable all the time.
Posted by frances 
on 21 September 2009, 9:54:14 AM
Irving Kristol obituary
Editor, journalist and political networker who was the founder of neoconservatism in the United States
Godfrey Hodgson guardian.co.uk, Sunday 20 September 2009 19.04

Irving Kristol, who has died aged 89, is regarded as the founder and principal champion of "neoconservatism" in the US, the new conservatism of those, formerly more or less on the left, who moved to the right in reaction to what they saw as the dangerous folly of the New Left in the 1960s and 70s. Kristol began as a Trotskyist and towards the end of his life called himself simply a conservative.

His son William, as an editor of the Weekly Standard, columnist for the New York Times and architect of the Project for a New American Century, became one of the leaders of a second generation of neoconservatives. But there was a generational shift of emphasis. Where the father and his contemporaries were chiefly concerned to point out what they saw as the delusions of liberal social science and social policy, the son and his friends were more focused on foreign policy and the maintenance of American international hegemony.

Irving Kristol's influence in the two worlds of New York publishing and intellectual journalism and of Washington politics was comparable to that of one of the great "popes" of the Paris intellectuals. He plunged into every controversy for 50 years, to deflate, to promote, to punish and reward before the jury of his disputatious friends and competitors. The single consistent key to his thinking was a deep American patriotism, with an implacable hostility to anyone who seemed to him to denigrate or oppose the US, its policies and its capitalist system.

Although he held academic posts, including professor of social thought at New York University from 1969 to 1987, Kristol was essentially a gifted journalist with strong ideological commitments who became an astonishingly effective publicist. As editor, essayist, columnist and impresario, he exerted an extraordinary influence on the network of magazines, thinktanks and grant-giving bodies, promoting the ideas he approved and those who could expound them, and ridiculing or excluding those who disagreed with him.

He occupied the editor's chair at a number of magazines: Commentary, Encounter, the Reporter and the Public Interest, which he co-founded in 1965 and which, despite its shortcomings, was the publication that did most to make possible the conservative ascendancy of the 1980s and after, by challenging liberal assumptions and promoting a new, conservative social science.

Kristol's ideas were neither notably clear nor particularly consistent, but they were gracefully and forcefully expressed. One biographer judged that his writing was "commanding in tone, supremely confident about subjects that are elsewhere held to be still in the flux of controversy, assuming always that anyone who thinks differently is perverse or inept".

The core of Kristol's conservatism was a staunch faith in the virtues of American society, armed with a contempt for those whom he saw as its enemies, be they communists in the 1950s – from his early days on the Trotskyist left, he was resolutely anti-Stalinist – the New Left in the 1960s, and liberals in the 1980s and thereafter. One key to understanding his otherwise surprising ideological shifts is to recognise that he was always on the right of the intellectual world he inhabited at any particular time. He came to have strongly conservative social instincts and was influenced by the philosopher Leo Strauss.

(full article - see Guardian)
Presumably the whole Labour front bench (present and ex - Mr Purnell) will be attending the funeral.
Posted by angela pinter (London)
on 20 September 2009, 12:47:31 PM
Is Compass going to make a statement about the allegations made or implied by martyn Rosen. Since Rosen is unwiling to elaborate furtehr Compass should state its position on such serious allegations.
Posted by angela pinter (London)
on 19 September 2009, 12:06:08 PM
What happened to Martyn Rosen?
Still no word from him. Well we are all waiting for you to respond.
Posted by angela pinter (London)
on 19 September 2009, 11:37:53 AM
McDonnell will only come to Compass, if at all, after the general election defeat. Thisis the moment the 'LEft' have been waiting for when they imagine they can recapture the remnants of Labour.
Labour will be decimated and there will be nothing to recapture because it is unlikely that Labour could ever again form a majority government.
OF course the LEft never learns not least their own responsiblity in driving away traditional supporters. The left should have split the party on a point of principle years ago. They would then have been in a m uch stronger position. They hesitated. Now it is too late.
Labour is finished. And it is the fault of all in the party ,left adn right, who were complicit in the end of internal democracy.
Posted by Brian Lynch (Carnoustie)
on 19 September 2009, 9:54:20 AM
My point exactly Dugsie, we not only on the left but also the majority of labour supporters have been sold out. We do not wish to see this happen again, hence my point about principled politicians and the way forward after the next election. Jonathon until compass actually invites John McDonnell to a debate everything is hypothetical. If he does refuse then fine, and hopefully he would give a good reason. I want to see new labour charlatans exposed that are claiming to have moved leftwards. As a country i believe that we cannot be continued fodder for the free market. So i repeat are compass going to invite John McDonnell to contribute and debate with Jon Cruddas?
Posted by Dugsie (Yorks)
on 19 September 2009, 9:10:35 AM
Posted by Salfordgal (London)
on 18 September 2009, 11:45:16 PM
Dugsie, is everything ok?

Thanks for asking SG.Carers move backwards and forwards from despair to hope continually. With the prospect of a Tory government looming, getting rid of Blue Labour is not as hopeful as it should be.
Posted by Dugsie (Yorks)
on 19 September 2009, 9:01:33 AM
The awkward fact that you don't explain Jonathon, is that while John McDonnell was leading the opposition to the Welfare Reform Bill in the Commons, Jon Cruddas was supporting his friend Purnell, who introduced it.This is one 24/7 carer who would support McDonnel over Cruddas any time and I suspect that there many disabled and ill people who would do the same.

The Cruddas parliamentary voting record has been posted on this site previously and not by me.
Posted by Salfordgal (London)
on 19 September 2009, 12:10:45 AM
But you said "disagree", Jonathon, not "disregard".
Posted by Jonathon Hawkes 
on 18 September 2009, 11:55:01 PM
No, I don't think that SG, but I think there is a difference between 'disagree' and 'disregard'.

McDonnell has dismissed everyone on the left who doesn't conform to his own narow defintion of the term. The reason why there is no debate with him is that he has never shown any interest in taking part in one. From his refusal to attend the 08 conference, from his regular bad mouthing of the non LRC centre left in the press, to his proposterosly pompous blog "John4Leader" (so that's decided then is it John?), the actions on display here are not of someone who wishes to engage in debate, either with Compass or anyone else for that matter.

His opposition to Compass and the centre left is clear. It makes no more sense to debate with him about the future of Social Democracy than it would be with David Cameron.
Posted by Salfordgal (London)
on 18 September 2009, 11:45:16 PM
Dugsie, is everything ok?
Posted by Salfordgal (London)
on 18 September 2009, 9:35:44 PM
"He has stated in the past that he feels Cruddas has no place on the left. Fine - but that's not much of a starting point for a debate, is it?"

It strikes me as the ideal starting point, Jonathon - unless, that is, you believe the only sensible starting point is to agree and then debate about...?
Posted by Jonathon Hawkes 
on 18 September 2009, 6:19:38 PM
....but Brian I see no sign of McDonnell's position changing on this so I suspect it would futile. McDonnell doesn't just disagree with Compass - he appears to be ideologically opposed to it. He has stated in the past that he feels Cruddas has no place on the left. Fine - but that's not much of a starting point for a debate, is it?
Posted by Brian Lynch (Carnoustie)
on 18 September 2009, 6:00:09 PM
Debates allow individuals to describe and justify their stance on the political spectrum.
My original point was aimed at rebuilding labour after the defeat at the election. Who and how, yes John McDonnell is a commited left winger so would be my natural choice. Jon Cruddas could be an able deputy if publicly he is commited to the same principals as McDonnell. In the past John McDonnell has criticised compass and Cruddas as being a new labour invention. My other point is if compass is really interested in a united left wing within a resurgent labour party. Surely it would be a good move to get John McDonnell on board, starting by an invite to contribute to this site and particularly the Cruddas article.
Posted by angela pinter (London)
on 18 September 2009, 2:16:40 PM
For example where woudl Cruddas ,based on 'rediscovering theh traditions of the Labour Party' stand on the issueof the Attorney General?
She is the the head of the legal arm of government but has been caught breaking the law. She employed an illegal immigrant who had no right to be in this country and no right to work.
Well Cruddas does not see a problem with that. HE hhinks that all illegal immigrants should be given an amnesty.
So what is the 'left' position on this? And what do others think?
What does Martyn Rosen think? I think we should be told
Posted by angela pinter (London)
on 18 September 2009, 1:50:49 PM
I am not 'on the left' but on the democratic side. To the extent that Labour has become an internally anti-democratic party as well as authoritarian and anti-democratic in government , then I am opposed to Labour unless and until there isa clean adn unequivocal break with the positionsof the past twelve years. Lets face it that is simply not on the agenda.
I am not sure what colours Cruddas has nailed to the mast. His lecture was a string of quotes which made little coherent sense.
Mc Donnell at least is a left winger who has dreams of 'recapturing' Labour for the LEft.
It is all too late I am afraid.
Posted by Brian Lynch (Carnoustie)
on 18 September 2009, 11:31:15 AM
McDonnell and Cruddas woudl be an incompatible team to 'lead' Labour.
Angela that would need to be assessed and where better than within compass, there is still plenty of time for us on the left to decide.
My opinion is that McDonnell would emerge as the senior partner with Cruddas an able deputy. McDonnell also has a bigger support in parliament, with the unions and grassroots, and is well respected. I take on board what you say about house of commons voting history. However the above lecture seems to indicate something else, while not condoning votes for iraq etc. lots of labour MPs can be tarred with that same brush. We are also asking for an overhaul of the voting system, plus a vast reduction in the use of whips.
Finally Crudass went public with his lecture so has nailed his colours to the mast.
Posted by angela pinter (London)
on 18 September 2009, 10:45:38 AM
I agree. LEt us have more debate and go back to discussing the speech by Cruddas.
Now that it has become clear that Martyn Rosen is not going to reply and that his allegations are not going tobe substantiated, we can go back to the debate.
Who goes first?
Posted by frances 
on 18 September 2009, 10:21:58 AM
Is there any chance of compass inviting John McDonnell to contribute his thoughts and views to the above lecture

There really needs to be some interaction here. Positive constructive thinking from every one. Bring it on.
Posted by angela pinter (London)
on 18 September 2009, 9:29:47 AM
Two days later and still no word from Martyn Rosen and his allegations of 'anti semitism' which have yet to be substantiated.
LEt readers draw their own conclusions. His silence speaks volumes.
Posted by angela pinter (London)
on 17 September 2009, 6:03:00 PM
Well I am not sure about 'principled' in the case of Cruddas. HE has voted for and supported all the repressive legislation passed
by New Labour.
McDonnell and Cruddas woudl be an incompatible team to 'lead' Labour.
Labour has no future particularly not under Cruddas who has been instrumental in squandering any future which Labour may have had.
It all seems a bit late. But perhaps we can go back to discussing the 'contents' of his speech which Compass has been fawning over
Posted by Brian Lynch (Carnoustie)
on 17 September 2009, 5:55:43 PM
Is there any chance of compass inviting John McDonnell to contribute his thoughts and views to the above lecture. Surely getting Cruddas and McDonnell together, and dare i say it as a dream team. Would surely enhance what compass and the members are about, namely getting labour back on a left wing footing. New labour and its beliefs need to be confined to the dustbin, johnny come lately's like Purnell need to be exposed. In my opinion Jon Cruddas and John McDonnell are the principled politicians that we now need to lead labour. So come on compass an invite to McDonnell please.
Posted by angela pinter (London)
on 17 September 2009, 5:51:21 PM
Perhaps. But this does not explain the silence from Compass.
And what has happened to the debate about Cruddas?
Posted by Salfordgal (London)
on 17 September 2009, 5:25:51 PM
I'd like to think it's a deep seated sense of shame, Angela, but I suspect that, in reality, he's only waiting until the Goldstone Report blows over.
Posted by angela pinter (London)
on 17 September 2009, 3:00:54 PM
Still no word from Martyn Rosen.
Are you off line?
Posted by angela pinter (London)
on 17 September 2009, 10:15:17 AM
Another day gone and no word from Martyn Rosen and his claims of
'anit-semitism'.
Well where is the evidence and is Compass going to continue its silence about this?
Posted by angela pinter (london)
on 16 September 2009, 9:43:26 PM
Well I think we can all agree that Martyn Rosen has had sufficient time to respond to the request that he substantiate his claims.
These claims are extremely serious and must not be used in the rather casual way that Rosen seems to.
Meanwhile perhaps the rest o f us who take politics more seriously should continue debating the merits or otherwise of the speech by Dr Jon Cruddas.
Posted by angela pinter (London)
on 16 September 2009, 2:37:02 PM
I agree with Salfordgal that the claims of Martyn ROsen need to be substantiated.
This should be done on this thread as they first appeared here. Iti s quite arrogant of Rosen to claim a separate thread for the purpose of making accusations of 'anti-semitism'.
The 'ghost' of 'anti semitism' is a fiction created by those who want to close down legitimate debate about the actions of the state of Isreal.
This fiction is the deliberate confusion of anti -emitism with anti- Zionism.
So Rosen where is the evidence? You cannot hide behind accusations suggestions or implications of 'anti semitism'.
We cannot go back properly to the thread until you have cleared this up and Compass should act to ensure that posters do not deliberately abuse language in this way.
Posted by Brian Lynch (Carnoustie)
on 16 September 2009, 12:36:49 PM
So please, not "left of centre" ... just "left".
Martyn, Are we now debating on the PC title of being left wing or socialist? Can i invite you to read my posting again, and by all means comment, but on the main topic please.
Posted by Salfordgal (London)
on 16 September 2009, 9:23:06 AM
"Dugsie, I take your point entirely, although it surprises me that the substance of my charges is not immediately evident to everyone here (unless, like me now, they don't read SG's posts)."

I think it's not immediately evident because there's no "evidence" for your libel against me. If you believe there is you have every right to surprise the world, and me, by producing it item by item, thread by thread.

"Israel is going to be in the political news for many years to come, and the ghost of anti-semitism always hangs over the debate."

Does it? This "ghost" seems magically able, like a tarnhelm with an in-built audience discrimination filter, to restrict its visibility to Zionists, supporters of the illegal occupation and settlement of Palestinian lands and occasional devastating war of choice launched against innocents within and outside the Occupied Territories by Israel.

Personally, my guess is that you think that throwing around the accusation of "anti-semitism" somehow deflects from - or mitigates, who knows what really goes on when you've got ghosts on the brain? - Israel's war crimes and crimes against humanity. I think those days are long past.

Posted by Martyn Rosen 
on 16 September 2009, 8:40:53 AM
... oh, and here's a supplementary thought.

Israel is going to be in the political news for many years to come, and the ghost of anti-semitism always hangs over the debate. So it strikes me that a thread entitled "Anti-semitism and the Israel/Palestinian conflict" would be a valid thread title.
Posted by Martyn Rosen 
on 16 September 2009, 8:37:14 AM
Dugsie, I take your point entirely, although it surprises me that the substance of my charges is not immediately evident to everyone here (unless, like me now, they don't read SG's posts).

So here's my proposition. I'm entirely happy to discuss my allegations in public provided that Compass are willing to allow me to do so. This thread is probably not the right place, so ideally I would ask Compass to start up a new thread, suitably titled so that those who have no interest in the discussion can studiously avoid it!

I can see why Compass would want to keep this discussion out of the general public view, but maybe this is another test of their openness to honest debate.
Posted by Dugsie (Yorks)
on 15 September 2009, 10:57:04 PM
On most issues my views are closer to Martyn's than to SG's. However,you don't have to agree with SG's views on Israel to accept that her criticisms may be called anti-Zionist, but that doesn't, in itself, make them anti-semitic.The accusation against SG was of herself, not just of her views. It was made in public on this site. So it surely should be either substantiated or withdrawn here.
Posted by Martyn Rosen 
on 15 September 2009, 10:28:36 PM
"I agree regards non reinvention of the labour party and movement. It is just that it needs to move back on the political spectrum to left of centre"
Brian Lynch

The point about that, Brian, is that it is THE PEOPLE who want the party to move (back) to that position. There is, I believe, a massive swathe of public opinion which is unrepresented in Parliament - SOCIALISM. To be frank, I'm uneasy at the currently popular use of the term "left of centre" as a euphemism for socialism; it was "left of centre" which opened the way for New Labourism, with its implication that "left" on its own was somehow nasty and unacceptable.

I truly believe that the moral principles of a large majority of British people are firmly socialist. They came to believe that socialism was an incomplete political system, capable of spending money socially but incapable of creating the wealth that was to be so spent. They were seduced by the notion that "the market" somehow magically created wealth and progress, and that there would be simply so much of it that surely it would be spent for the greater good.

The experience of the last 25 years, and the last 10 in particular, has shattered both of those illusions, I hope permanently.

Everything I hear and read says that the British people want social fairness which only socialism can deliver, stability which only socialism can deliver, and democracy which only socialism can deliver.

I was continually amused to observe how often, in the US Presidential election, Obama had to deny that he was "a socialist". The term ranks alonside "paedophile" and "terrorist" over there. But over here its part of a proud tradition, and it's time we reasserted that tradition.

So please, not "left of centre" ... just "left".
Posted by Salfordgal (London)
on 15 September 2009, 10:06:24 PM
"Let's leave the discussion of Israel for the next foreign policy article which judging by the past will probably not be along for a year or two."

Trouble is, frances, it's a lot less about foreign policy than about the tendency of some posters to fling around the term anti-semitism whenever someone questions their pet assumptions about the appropriateness of a specifically Jewish State in a world of multi-national/multi-ethnic states (only one of which, in recent years has sought to model itself on Israel, and that's Sri Lanka); and/or the particularity of the Jewish experience during the Holocaust and, thus, Jewry's unique experience of suffering compared with... well everything else in the whole of history; and/or any suggestion that Israel may have committed war crimes and crimes against humanity during its regular psychotic attacks on its neighbours; and/or the right of Israel to go to war against/impose sanctions on/fence off the Palestinians from their own lands and fields; and/or turn the Palestinian lands into bantustans; and/or criticising the US for its continuing support of Israel regardless of its crimes against humanity; and/or expressing support for Ken Livingstone; and/or... and so on, and so on... the list seems endless, and the responses endlessly petty, and endlessly nasty.

I think there's a place for something approximating the truth, honestly held, in political debate and I'm not sure that, for instance, Martyn, whether as climate change denier troll or as trollish holocaust wielding Jewish particularist defender of Israel's brutal and de-humanising wars of choice, really understands that.
Posted by Brian Lynch (Carnoustie)
on 15 September 2009, 10:04:58 PM
I agree regards non reinvention of the labour party and movement. It is just that it needs to move back on the political spectrum to left
of centre. The new labour project and drift to the centre right has been an abject failure. The reasons being far too great to list, and have been debated many times here already.
The question is who is going to lead it back to its natural position in politics, not Gordon Brown or anyone else in the cabinet i would guess. The baggage is too great for all of them, defeat looks inevitable at the general election especially as Brown will still be leader.
We can only assume a natural order will radically reorganise the scheme of things, with the help of the left and organisations like compass. Bearing this in mind i do think we should be seeing and hearing other left wing MPs and thinkers offering debates within compass. Members can then democratically get involved with reshaping how labour is to go forward. We know what the tories will do,
especially with the likes of John Redwood and Michael Forsythe still in the background. So the sooner labour gets reunited again the better.
Posted by frances 
on 15 September 2009, 9:22:03 PM
'I have said many times that I don't understand why it is believed that the Labour Party needs to be reinvented, or why new moral principles need to be devised as its core. I think that there's little wrong with the OLD principles, which are perfectly well understood by the many millions of people who once supported the Party.'

Well said. But how do we get rid of them. Apparently Harriet Harman was distributing questionaires at the TUC asking who was most popular on the front bench including Gordon. The journalists reporting this were amazed at her cheek with Gordon delivering his big four-cuts-in-one-sentence speech and then decided it's part of her leadership bid. She won the deputy leadership contest after all.

How do we get from this lot back to the sort of principled Labour leadership we want. They have all supported NewLabour.(For sheer raving delusion look at the article on Tony Blair in today's Guardian called 'My Granny told me not to marry a Catholic'. But he did and becoming a Catholic was the greatest event of his life and he now hopes to lead Taoists and Buddhists to the light. The Pope wants him for President of Europe. I suppose if you start unstoppable wars and have all those lost lives on your conscience it's a good way to go. But if he's repenting in the confessional perhaps the rest of them could show some remorse over the issues of Labour values. I still wouldn't trust them.

(Let's leave the discussion of Israel for the next foreign policy article which judging by the past will probably not be along for a year or two.)
Posted by Salfordgal (London)
on 15 September 2009, 6:19:51 PM
"My comments about SG are NOT unsubstantiated, but I don't want to (further) clutter this thread. I'm happy to repeat my offer of some months ago and to engage in discussion and present my evidence with anyone (including SG) by email at macrosan@blueyonder.co.uk"

I think you should place the "evidence" on this site, Martyn.

Why not submit an article outlining your "evidence" (supported by a link to the page of each thread from whiich this "evidence" is drawn) and offering whatever arguments you may feel able to muster to justify your grotesque and thoroughly obnoxious libel?

I will be happy to respond to your "evidence" and arguments, however crass and unworthy of my consideration they may be, and I will be equally happy if others take the opportunity to join in and discuss whether or not the equations that (1) anti-Zionism = anti-semitism; and (2) anti-Israel's illegal occupation and settlement of Palestinians lands = anti-semitism - which seems to be what you're driving at.
Posted by angela pinter (London)
on 15 September 2009, 5:38:00 PM
Where is everybody. ????
Are you all listening to the TUC speech?
Posted by Martyn Rosen 
on 15 September 2009, 5:34:09 PM
Two brief asides, then I'll agree with Lewis and Jonathon and return to the primary topic.

My comments about SG are NOT unsubstantiated, but I don't want to (further) clutter this thread. I'm happy to repeat my offer of some months ago and to engage in discussion and present my evidence with anyone (including SG) by email at macrosan@blueyonder.co.uk.

The reasons these threads veer of topic is that almost all the threads offered to us by Compass are on topics of THEIR executive's choosing, and not those which people here want to talk about. Right now I believe that ELEVEN of the last FIFTEEN threads offered by Compass are on the subject of the "High Pay" campaign and Jon Cruddas's speeches. And as a subscriber to Compass, and a financial supporter of (some of) it's campaigns, I want to see better than this. I want and expect Compass to operate democratically on this website.

OK, asides over.

Jon Cruddas's "summer lecture" here is donnish. It presents some interesting historical, philosophical and literary perspectives, and it says a lot that is obviously right.

The problem is that it's clear that Jon either believes in what he has written and has been voting consistently against those beliefs for the past few years, or else he has voted for what he believes in and his lecture is (to him) so much interesting intellectual hypothesis.

This conundrum in no way invalidates Jon's words, but it does give rise to much uncertainty as to the purpose of his uttering them.

Taken at face value, I do think much of what Jon SAYS helps to provide a sound philosophical basis for a putative democratic Labour Party. But unless he and many others are willing to stand for these principles, and against the present functionaries of the Party, the words are just noise.

I have said many times that I don't understand why it is believed that the Labour Party needs to be reinvented, or why new moral principles need to be devised as its core. I think that there's little wrong with the OLD principles, which are perfectly well understood by the many millions of people who once supported the Party. With the greatest respect, we just don't NEED a Jon Cruddas to explain what Labour is about - we already KNOW. Academic meanderings simply obfuscate the issue.
Posted by Salfordgal (London)
on 15 September 2009, 3:03:11 PM
Oh, God! Now he's got a list of demands he's going to make to the IMF - all of them weaker versions of what the Dutch, French and German governments have made it known they find desirable.

Oh, and a token defence of the NHS which the PFI has done so much to destroy. He's not actually gone so far as to deny the existence of death panels, though, which is a bit of a worry.

Posted by Salfordgal (London)
on 15 September 2009, 2:52:39 PM
Just been listening to the Supreme Cheese at the TUC. He's just told them that we must all work together - presumably to give the bankers' bigger bonuses. He's now justifying re-capitalising the casinos - presumably so that they can afford the legal fees to evict as many mortgagees as they need to maintain the integrity of the financial system. Oh, now he's talking about throwing crumbs to the poor. And some of the audience clap. God in Heaven! So-o-o-o embarrassing to watch. What must it be like to take the nonsense spewed out by this buffoon seriously? Although that may be my student loan speaking.
Posted by angel pinter (London)
on 15 September 2009, 10:45:04 AM
Lewis Parry
IF the objective is to deny a Tory victory then presumably you mean a hung Parliament.
That measn votign for the most likely anti Tory candidate usually a Lib Dem
That also means the destruction of the Labour Party which has now emerged as a reactionary and anti-democratic force with the complicity of its members.
Howevre a hung Parliament has its dangers with a the possibility of a grand colation as in Germany.
Some progressives think that hung Parliament is more likely to produce democratic reforms. But an agreement has been reached by both front benches to oppose PR for Parliament. Sorry to bring bad tidings but more democracy measn the destruction of the
neo-liberal 'Labour Party'.

Posted by angela pinter (London)
on 15 September 2009, 10:21:37 AM
The whole thread has gone off topic.
Perhaps Roger can aplogise for his intemperate remarks adn we can go back to discussing Cruddas and his plans for rebuilding Labour.
Posted by frances 
on 15 September 2009, 9:53:30 AM
Difficult to reply to this debate without going off topic so I shall be brief.

In the days when I went to Labour Party branch meetings regularly where ever I lived campaigns and theory were so interwoven that no one gave it a second thought. If you remove camapigning then you become a philosophical group or a support-the-leadership-whatever they-do group. Note - Compass get about 1000 replies in support when they appear to be launching a campaign. Launching is the word because it seems to end there. Thee is a thirst to campaign.

But Compass don't have democratic policy making mechanisms so the transition from soft in your head philosophy to far harder campaigns that operate in the real world and a re far more revealing is a barrier for them.

But the activity and interest and engagement of surfers and members will be limited if Compass stays at the theory level.

And for people out there every day dealing with the after shocks of actual government policies - the theory seems a bit of an indulgence. The Labour government is not an academic life style choice - it is running our government and has been for over ten years and its decisions are helping or harming real people every day. The Labour Party understood this when it was rooted in local branches. Now it lives in Downing Street and there are no neighbours.

Interest in all things political is not a hobby - it used to be part of communal social living and if you divorce it from real life you kill it.
Posted by Lewis Parry (Elx)
on 14 September 2009, 6:02:18 PM
angela,the main focus must be denying a Tory victory.
Not a purged and shiny Compass site;not a purified
rump Labour remnant.
The UK Conservatives are an edgy and shabby crew.
There is time for this administration to admit and
address its mistakes.
Sorry to shower on your pyre.
Posted by Salfordgal (London)
on 14 September 2009, 4:56:57 PM
"I don’t think that people who use this site should have an expectation that it can be used to further their own pet projects or agendas. Personally, I don’t have a problem with the discussions being limited to those articles that have been posted – I take your point about other issues, and the example of Carers is a good one. However, the facility to submit articles for discussion has always been there."


This problem has been raised on other occasions from this and other perspectives.

One suggestion made a few times by some of us has been to have a few specialist threads which are subject or issue based rather than article based. It's a pity that threads given over to Compass Reports roll off the home page and, I think because of this, we very rarely seem to treat the contents with the consideration so many of them merit. I suppose that, ideally, we would have a "front page" with mini headlines leading to many possible contents, some of the day, and some - Reports and issues - continuing discussions. I suspect there are enough economists who check this site for us to have had a pretty interesting technical discussion of the problems of asset price inflation before it turned into an asset price deflation which might well have picked up on some of the policy issues from a left perspective which this government and other governments have barely begun to define yet and which may have made a difference... Who knows?
Posted by Brian Lynch (Carnoustie)
on 14 September 2009, 4:56:13 PM
Apologies for the multiple postings, its not that i am a megalomaniac, just a technical hitch.

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