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Stuart White explores 'The New Republicanism'

Monday, February 23 2009

The financial crisis and resulting recession is feeding a sense that we could be at the end of a political era - in a way, at the end of two political eras: the era of New Labour and the era of ‘neo-liberalism' of which the New Labour years were a part.

But what will the new era look like? What will be its agenda? Unless we sort this out, and quickly, there is every chance that neo-liberalism will win through, again, by default.

On the right, thinkers are already staking out their territory. In his ‘Rise of the Red Tories', Phillip Blond argues that the time is ripe for a new Conservatism based on a repudiation of both social and economic liberalism. On the economic side, Blond advocates greater political and economic localism, the regulation of markets to protect small businesses and the wider distribution of wealth. On the social side, ‘Red Toryism' eschews multiculturalism as morally nihilistic in favour of a ‘common but high civilisation' that ‘binds all Britons together in a vision of a culture worth sharing.'

In our new book, Building a Citizen Society: The Emerging Politics of Republican Democracy, Daniel Leighton and I have drawn together a distinguished group of contributors to set out a different agenda. We believe that republican democracy offers a political philosophy that takes on the contemporary challenges of unaccountability and wealth concentration much more capably than either the traditional Labourist approach or the various new conservatisms currently on offer. It also offers a much more attractive, liberal approach to cultural diversity.

Democracy, liberty, equality

So what is ‘republican democracy'?

To begin with, it is not primarily about monarchy. Of course, hereditary monarchy is a silly and inequitable idea. Of course, the monarchy should be abolished. But getting rid of monarchy is not where the most important action is for contemporary republicans.

Republican democracy is, first and foremost, democratic. It affirms that state authority derives from ‘we, the people'. But democratic authority, to be legitimate, must also justly serve the people. To this end, it must be guided by two core values: liberty and equality.

Liberty demands that individuals be free of what the philosopher Philip Pettit calls ‘domination': of living at the mercy of others who have the power to intervene at will in one's life. This applies to the state. But it also applies in the workplace and in the family.

Republican democracy calls for a high degree of economic equality. In part, this is a just demand in itself. But it also follows from the desire to protect liberty, for liberty as non-domination is easily subverted by accumulations of power that result from inequalities of wealth. It also follows from the concern to maintain popular sovereignty. For such accumulations of power can also too easily displace the demos as the real decision-making force in society.

Not least, republican democracy holds that a free and sufficiently equal society cannot be maintained with a passive, depoliticised citizen body. ‘We, the people' must take active responsibility, through political and other forms of social participation, for the achievement of democracy's moral ends, liberty and equality.

This is all very abstract. So let's draw out some more concrete implications and explain how they contrast with the traditional politics of ‘Labourism'.

Differences with Labourism

First, consider ownership issues. Post-war social democracy tended, at least in practice, to downplay issues around ownership (and we mean ownership of wealth here, not income). It rejected the traditional socialist commitment to take all major industries into public ownership, but didn't put much in its place. Republican democracy calls for renewed attention to ownership questions.

For one thing, a much wider dispersion of wealth is essential to achieve liberty (for all). Without property of their own, individuals become reliant on others - employers, spouses, family - for vital resources. But someone with property has crucial bargaining power. They needn't scramble desperately into this or that job, because they can, for a limited time at least, live off their property. This is why republican democracy looks favourably on proposals to universalize capital ownership or to create near-equivalents like a scheme of unconditional basic income.

From the point of view of popular sovereignty, it also matters who controls property - or, more exactly, who controls investment. While democracy and capitalism are partly complementary, they are in part at odds because the private control of investment flows by a (usually) small elite places definite limits on what a democratically-elected government can feasibly do: if it goes 'too far' in a reformist direction, there will be a capital strike, and reforms will have to be abandoned to revive the economy.

Republican democracy looks in the long-run to overcome this contradiction by bringing investment itself under greater democratic control. This does not mean giving control over investment to central government. Rather, it means democratizing the way in which investment funds are controlled from within society. For example, as Robin Blackburn has suggested, we could establish, by means of a capital levy, new 'social funds' under the control of trade unions and citizen groups.

Second, consider the nature of citizenship. For the most part, post-war social democracy accepted - even encouraged - a relatively passive notion of citizenship. Yes, citizens should usually come out and vote for an MP once every 4 or 5 years. But it was not necessary or desirable for them to do much more than this.

But there are a number of reasons why social democracy is likely to fare badly on this basis. First, participation in collective decision-making arguably has important educative effects in terms of nurturing citizens' skills and sensibilities. Here social democrats might have something to learn from an unlikely source: Alexis de Tocqueville. In Democracy in America (1835, 1840), Tocqueville argued that 'the Americans' of the 1820s/30s had rescued themselves from 'individualism' - the immersion of individuals and families in their own affairs to the neglect of a concern for the wider society - by devolving governmental power down to localities. This, he argued, pushed people out of the narrow circle of their private concerns, increased their sense of interdependence, and their sensitivity to the interests of others. In short: participation in collective decision-making can help to nurture a sense of civic membership and concern for the common good.

Second, participation matters because of its power effects. As the level of popular participation in political life changes so too does the balance of power in society. Stated crudely, 'people power' emerges as a counter-weight to the power of money. This is why republican democracy celebrates the new citizen-organizing movements, like London Citizens, which seek to bring church groups and unions and other organizations together to campaign for policies like Living Wages and better treatment of asylum seekers.

Differences with ‘Red Toryism'

Some of this might sound a lot like ‘Red Toryism': a suspicion of the state, a celebration of civil society, a commitment to spread asset ownership more widely.

To the extent that there is overlap, we say: well and good. But there are also a number of very important differences.

First, while republican democrats are suspicious of the state, they nevertheless see it as having a crucial role in realizing democracy's moral ends of liberty and equality. The point is not to eschew the state as such, but to limit its power to act arbitrarily and to restructure it so that it is more open to popular participation. At the same time, the state - including the central state - must be used to combat economic inequality and, thereby, to protect individual liberty and popular sovereignty.

Republican democrats celebrate ‘civil society'. But it is not celebrated simply as an apolitical realm of natural freedom in contrast to that of the state. Civil society - Edmund Burke's ‘little platoons' - can have its own parochialism, and it is important to have public forums and encompassing social movements which draw people into engagement with society's wider, common good.

And yes, republican democrats seek a wider distribution of wealth. But in contrast to ‘Red Toryism', they have plenty of genuinely radical ideas about how to promote this: citizen's inheritance schemes under which all citizens receive a capital sum at birth or on maturity financed from inheritance tax; compulsory capital-growth sharing schemes under which firms are required to set aside a proportion of their profits in the form of new shares to be held by workers' trusts; or popularly-controlled social funds, as discussed above, which could provide dividend payments for all citizens.

A deeper difference with ‘Red Toryism' is that republican democracy does not set itself up in opposition to something called ‘liberalism'. Liberalism has contributed enormously to our understanding of what liberty and equality, the moral ends of democracy, require. Republican democracy comes to realize liberalism, not to bury it.

The state must not play favourites between citizens of different religious faiths (and none), and certainly should not seek to build a shared political culture on the basis of any particular faith tradition. Religious commitments will of course motivate many to participate in politics. But the core values of the public sphere - democracy, liberty and equality - are independent of specific faith traditions; and it is in terms of a shared commitment to these political values that a sense of common citizenship is properly built.

So that's what we mean by republican democracy. It's not about absorbing society into the state or into the market or about uncritically celebrating ‘civil society' as an alternative to both. It's about using all three in a way that delivers on the promise of democracy and its moral ends of liberty and equality.

Stuart White

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Comments

1 to 50 of 100
Posted by Lewis Parry (Elx)
on 05 March 2009, 10:17:07 AM
Dugsie,David Miliband said to me only the other day that diplomacy
is not a game of "Risk" ,but a thorough and far reaching undertaking,requiring guile,patience and vision,and the avoidance of rash committments.When he becomes PM he would tend to favour my
promotion to the Foreign Office rather than Martyn's or yourself,despite my recent poor assessment.As he so succinctly put it,"now is not the time for headstrong novices".
Posted by Dugsie (North Yorkshire)
on 04 March 2009, 3:24:47 PM
Brilliant diplomacy Lewis. Give Gibraltar to Morocco. They can then negotiate with Spain for the return of their occupied territories in exchange.
Posted by Lewis Parry (Elx)
on 04 March 2009, 1:50:29 PM
Martyn,you believe Gibraltar should return to Spain.
Why Spain?Why not Morocco?After all the Moors occupied
the territory longer than Imperial Spain.The name is a
clue.Presumably you believe the Spanish exclaves on the
Moroccan mainland should revert to their immediate neighbour.
That'll happen the far side of never.What do the folk residing
in these vestiges of old wars want?Not necessarily what we
regard as neat.Gibraltar wasn't a burden as a military outpost
in WW2,and may yet be relevant.Malta and Gozo weren't handed over
to Italy or Libya.We're in Miliband territory here,subtle shades of grey,and he's good at it.Carrington proved in the Falklands that
the wrong signals spell disaster for all.
Posted by Lewis Parry (Elx)
on 04 March 2009, 9:46:33 AM
Martyn,thanks.Will set out my anti devolvement case fully asap!
Posted by Martyn Rosen 
on 03 March 2009, 10:03:14 PM
"Martyn,are you evading the Gibraltar issue?Specifically do you approve of
the eventual ending of the Crown Colony status,and how do you envisage this?"

I'm not evading it, I didn't think it was an issue LOL

Yes, I do approve of the ending of the Crown Colony status of Gibraltar, because I think it serves no purpose of any value in today's (or tomorrow's) world, and it is too expensive to maintain. I also believe that it is in the best interests of future Gibraltarians that they become part of Spain.

I would simply do what we did in Hong Kong, which is to give a date for the handover of the territory to Spain and to offer financial assistance to Gibralatarians who wish to do so to emigrate to Britain.

What would you do, Lewis ? I assume you're in favour of maintaining the status quo, and I'm interested to know why, and what burden this places on Britain.
Posted by Lee (US)
on 03 March 2009, 8:59:10 PM
"One of my principles is not cherry-picking your favourite dictator to target"

Martyn:No Lee, that's not a principle at all, it's an evasion.

That's the third time in a row that you've evaded givin g a direct reply to my question as to what (in principle) you would do about the crisis in Zimbabwe. On each occasion you have attempted top divert the discussion back to the USA because that muddies the water of principle, whereas the situation in Zimbabwe is (I think) quite clear in this respect.

That's what saddens me about this discussion. We are all encouraged to demonise the white imperialists who are the source of all that is evil in the world today, but denied the right to criticise black ex-heroes. That is unprincipled.
***********************************************************
I have given you a better answer on Zimbabwe than you have given on any of the issues discussed. And to imply that I "demonise" white imperialists, but "deny the right to criticise black ex heroes" is a load of tosh. I have never claimed that "white imperialism" is special. I was quite forthright on Chinese imperialism. And I have never claimed that it is the "source of all that is evil". Religious fundamentalism is a source of enormous human pain and misery. In the US it happened to team up with imperialism under Bush. I regard Mugabe as an unacceptable tyrant, a seriously insane and psychotic man, as I did Idi Amin. YOU are the one who is sensitive about attacks on Bush and Blair, and I think I know why. In any event, your last post descended to such childish straw man tactics that once again I really dont think there is any point in discussing this further. You clearly love winning points. I am not interested in that kind of dialogue. So let's just accept that we disagree fundamentally over the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan. I am with the majority and in very good company, so I feel quite confident in my stance.
Posted by Lewis Parry (Elx)
on 03 March 2009, 8:02:29 PM
Martyn,are you evading the Gibraltar issue?Specifically do you approve of
the eventual ending of the Crown Colony status,and how do you envisage this?Normally you are the most punctillious and reasoned co-poster,so
is there a problem here?To me you have disturbed a sleeping rock to no purpose.Genuinely looking forward to your usual lively discourse!
Posted by Martyn Rosen 
on 03 March 2009, 7:42:15 PM
"One of my principles is not cherry-picking your favourite dictator to target"

No Lee, that's not a principle at all, it's an evasion.

That's the third time in a row that you've evaded givin g a direct reply to my question as to what (in principle) you would do about the crisis in Zimbabwe. On each occasion you have attempted top divert the discussion back to the USA because that muddies the water of principle, whereas the situation in Zimbabwe is (I think) quite clear in this respect.

That's what saddens me about this discussion. We are all encouraged to demonise the white imperialists who are the source of all that is evil in the world today, but denied the right to criticise black ex-heroes. That is unprincipled.
Posted by Lee (US)
on 03 March 2009, 2:30:07 PM
Obama Wont Spoon with Gordie ! It has been reported that even although the Clunk put on special make-up, Obama cancelled the meeting with Brown and returned the bust of Winston Churchill. His special treatment of Ourtony at the national prayer breakfast, shows that if its a choice between a spiv and an idiot, Obama prefers the spiv. I am sure that the last decade of British PMs trying to creep up the ass of whichever American President is in office, must have done wonders for British self-regard. I wish Gordie and his granny-cabinet a happy few decades lost in the weeds.
Posted by Lee (US)
on 03 March 2009, 2:17:33 PM
Frances:
Lee is clinging on by his finger nails to not being pulled over to supporting the Israeli violence and finds that equally difficult.
******************************************************

Wow, Frances, that is amazing feedback ! I must have been really obscure. What did I say that prompted you to form that impression ?
Posted by Lee (US)
on 03 March 2009, 2:13:40 PM
One of my principles is not cherry-picking your favourite dictator to target. One of the most odious aspects of US foreign policy is the declaration of noble purpose whenever there happens to be something to steal, and propping up horrible regimes with suitcases of greenbacks.

On Mugabe, I believe that he will fairly soon create his own destruction. He was already forced to make concessions, and although he was no more serious and honest than Peter Mandelson, he wont succeed. In any case it is clear to me that he is now trying to save his own life.

Of course it is unprincipled to send Milosovic to the Hague, and not Mugabe, Bush, Blair, and a bunch of other war criminals. That is exactly what I am protesting. Just as its unacceptable to cry out against the treatment of women under the Taleban but retain a close alliance with Saudi Arabia
Posted by Lewis Parry (Elx)
on 03 March 2009, 9:14:55 AM
Martyn,I have no confidence in your prognostications since the Gibraltar remark.It shows me that you are totally unsuited to be foreign secretary,and would create crises where calm diplomacy
is obviously the best course.I think you should reconsider your
advocacy of UK withdrawal in the light of the reality of a complex situation affecting vital interests and people's lives.
Posted by frances (london)
on 03 March 2009, 8:34:35 AM
Let's wish Neal and all the others who fighting the fight against the Welfare Reforms well at Westminster today. CarerWatch are making a statement at the rally. Every one at CarerWatch is very appreciative of the fight being made by Compass and the unions to help us and our carees.

Full press coverage in this mornings Herald.


Posted by Martyn Rosen 
on 02 March 2009, 11:38:53 PM
Lee, you'll be sorry to know that I'm NOT a lawyer of any variety, but I still don't mind you getting angry.

Look, you argued in an earlier post that the issue of "external interference" is solely a matter of principle. But the principle cannot ignore pragmatic dictates. It's all very fine to say that there is no strictly principled means to invade Afghanistan (with which incidentally I agree), but when principles create or allow atrocity, then the validity of those principles needs to be reviewed.

There is no doubt that Franklin Roosevelt always intended to enter the Second World War for the whole two years that he was calming the fears of his citizens by saying that he had no such intentions. Roosevelt was behaving in an unprincipled way, but I would contend that his unprincipled lies were necessary in the greater good, and his action in taking the USA into that war was morally correct. With hindsight we can see that entry into that war (and supplying British armaments needs) saved America from the Depression, impoverished Britain to the advantage of the USA, and turned the USA into the predominant world superpower. Was all of that Roosevelt's objective ? Maybe, but even if so then Roosevelt was right.

The problem with principles is that they are rarely codified adequately or consensually, and are too often used as an excuse for inaction. The phrase "a matter of principle" when used by politicians is rarely that at all.

That is not to say that principles are not an important part of the process - they are, and they should not be ignored readily. But they need to be balanced by practical considerations of priorities and alternatives. And the alternative to "principled inaction" is not necessarily, or ever firstly, violence.

So let's return to the very simple case of Zimbabwe. I assume the facts are not in dispute. Mugabe is a vicious dictator who continues to murder and torture tens or hundreds of thousands of his countrymen, who is impoverishing and destroying his own country for personal gain. Zimbabweans have made their wishes known clearly through an astonishingly brave display of democratic action. The whole world, for the last ten years, has managed to muster a plan of action comprising limited financial sanctions against a tiny number of named political Mugabe supporters. The rest is mealy-mouthed narrative.

Where are the arms embargoes, supported by naval blockades ? Where are the sanctions against countries maintaining funds for Mugabe and his cohorts, and supplying arms to them ? Where is the outright condemnation of the OAS and in particular the South African government? Why are not charges laid against Mugabe and his ministers in the Courts of The Hague ? Why have we not even proposed total sanctions against the whole country ? Why does the UN or the EU or even a single government not state clearly that under no conditions will they accept anything short of Mugabe's total departure from government ?

Given the past self-humiliation of the rest of the world, it is almost certain that Mugabe will continue to ignore all of those actions. In which case, they will need to be supported by promises of violent action, including the certainty of prosecution at The Hague for all of the culpable politicians.

And if that final violent action becomes necessary, will that meet all of your principles? I guess not. People will die, including innocent people. Those who take over the reins of power may turn into Mugabes. The west might gain influence and even trading benefits from the new nation. There are no guarantees about the future - there never were - not for unprincipled action OR for principled inaction.
Posted by frances (london)
on 02 March 2009, 5:06:43 PM
I think the motivation and the methods of your own side and the enemy get very cloudy once the battle is joined. I think the eying up and posturing phase is transient and the group then decides to fight or to withdraw.

Once battle is joined and the shrieking starts you are not wired to revisit your intitial assessment. You are wired to kill or be killed. That's why your own side increasingly has to appear to you as noble and your ends glorious and the other side has to appear as evil with barbaric methods and evil ends.

Iraq was to some extent about Israel. Remember the road map.

It's interesting to watch the debate between Martyn and Lee because I suspect (complete supposition and profuse apologies if I have it wrong) Martyn who is a very thoughtful person has switched very reluctantly over the years to supporting the Israelis in war mode and finds it very unnatural and uncomfortable and Lee is clinging on by his finger nails to not being pulled over to supporting the Israeli violence and finds that equally difficult.



Posted by frances (london)
on 02 March 2009, 4:49:29 PM
Yes, Frances. At the most fundamental level it is a clear choice: cooperate and share/ or compete, cheat, and kill. It does seem as if individuals are wired for one or the other


I think we are wired to be co operative and peaceful within our own group and then to be roused to fight when danger appears. I think we all operate in both modes and the perception of danger switches us. Young warrior types are switched quicker than elderly ladies but people who know how to beat the drum can switch most people by increasign the perceived threat.

I am a bad enemy to have if I decide to fight - very dogged. I'm determined to see the end of gNewLabour but doubt I'll see the end of the rich stealin from the poor -that fight is eternal. Why? Because they can. And I have no difficulty organising and fighting. It's not a bad thing to do.

But there is absolutely no need to fight by primitive violent methods. Mugabe is a cruel tyrant - let's fight him. But by non violent methods. Otherwise the issues get confused and blood gets spilt and when the dust finally settles the same conflict is still there.
Posted by Lee (US)
on 02 March 2009, 3:07:55 PM
Martyn: and in case I appear guilty of over-simplification, of course Bush didnt have only one motive for invading Afghanistan. No one will truly know them all, but we are pretty sure that one strong motive was to flag his sagging popularity and divert attention from his bizarre ineffectiveness after 9/11; another would have been to establish the "war presidency" which would allow him to ignore the law and the constitution (Rove has as good as admitted that this was a key motive); the third was to announce the "war on terror" as a way of gaining compliance and silencing dissent among the public; the fourth was an announcement to the world that the US was about to get tough and every country had to choose which side it was on (he actually announced at the time "those who are not with us are against us"); the4 fifth was to demonstrate to the UN that America would do whatever it wished regardless of what the UN felt; the sixth was to introduce opportunities for war profiteering for his most loyal corporate allies (that bit was managed by Cheney); the seventh was to provide the basis for a massive increase in military expenditure (also great for his friends); the eighth was a message to Congress: there will be a never-ending state of war and this war president must be given exactly what he wants; and the ninth was to ensure that the supine and obsequious American media would be directed in future by press releases from the Pentagon, and that genuine investigative reporting would be replaced by "embedded journalism" (ie propaganda).
Posted by Lee (US)
on 02 March 2009, 2:56:03 PM
Martyn: I was quite angry with your previous post, and there is sufficient material in this latest one to make me angry again, but that would be both discourteous to others who post here, and unnecessary in any event. So let's try again.

I cannot understand how the motive can be separated by the "priority to act", as both reside in the actor. Its irrelevant how you or I read the need to "act" in Afghanistan because we are not the actors. Bush was the actor, and his need to act was a product of his motivation: to secure a pipeline that the Taliban had rejected during negotiations in Texas, and beyond that, to secure military or political control (inevitably both) of Afghanistan as a key part of the region to cut off Russia and China from future opportunities for securing oil sources. That was the need, and that was the motivation. Bush was not listening to you, or the Pope, or organizations concerned about the plight of women in Afghanistan, although his spin doctors ensured that he would coopt whatever he could to provide a cover for his invasion. Invaders have always done that and probably always will. So we were entertained to the grotesque sight of Laura Bush on TV telling the world that Georgie was doing this for the women of Afghanistan. I feel fairly confident that along with almost everyone else, Martyn, you knew that was BS.

I accept the fact that motives dont dictate modality in a strict one-on-one predictable and inevitable fashion. There is always a choice of modalities, like for example, lying that the invasion is about democracy, or saying that you are carrying out God's will (both of which Bush employed, but sure, he didnt have to). However, to claim that there is no relationship between motive and modality is pretty far-fetched. If you really maintain that, you could posit that a genuinely humane intervention was perfectly compatible with shock and awe tactics; and that a plan to rape a country could very reasonably be conducted by deputations of nuns.

Are you a lawyer by any chance ?
Posted by Martyn Rosen 
on 02 March 2009, 2:33:00 PM
Wow Lee, that's a lot of false logic in one post ! I need to take your points one by one, or I may run out of badwidth LOL. Now that you've explained your personal background, I understand why you get so heated about this topic, but that's no excuse for sloppy interpretation.

"OK, you are strictly correct because you did not comment directly on the e is means. What you are saying is that the motive is immaterial."

No, I am not "STRICTLY" correct (implying that I am playing with words), I am correct. No, I am not saying motive is "immaterial", I am saying that the priority is to act, that if the only available action carries with it undesirable motivation then action is still necessary, that we need to be aware of that motivation and deal with it later, but that fear of undesirable motivation should not (except in extreme cases) deny action in the meantime. That last condition is simple exemplified below.

"So if Bush had invaded Iraq to control its oil exploration and distribution, ensuring no bid monopolies for US oil companies, thus ensuring that Iraq would have neither control over its resources or the best deal it could make through international competitive bidding, AND they got rid of Saddam Hussein, that is good enough for you."

That's a fascinating example to pick, because of course very many people during the Iraq invasion believed that Bush would commandeer Iraqi oil and take covert control of the country. That was one of the reasons for opposition to the invasion. Now I accept that Bush and Co may have changed their minds halfway through, but the facts with hindsight say that neither of those motivations was met.

But actually my own position is far more pragmatic than trying to read the minds of people like Bush and Rove and Cheney. I believe that if we believe there is covert motivation which would produce results that are undesirable, but we are confident that we can counter that motivation, then we can accept the "proxy" action. So in the case you quote my position WOULD have been to OPPOSE the Iraq invasion (if I believed that the US was motivated as you suggest) because I think we could not have prevented the US fulfilling that supposed agenda. The price, in ther words, would have been too high to pay.

"You dont believe that there are any connections between the motives and the means employed. And if you dont mean that, what the hell do you mean ?"

I don't understand what you mean. There is no causal connection between motives and means, and no difference in effect. Do you mean that people with bad motives necessarily employ bad means ? I'd love to explain to you what the hell I mean if you tell me what the hell you mean by what the hell I mean :-)))))
Posted by Lee (US)
on 02 March 2009, 1:42:18 PM
Yes, Frances. At the most fundamental level it is a clear choice: cooperate and share/ or compete, cheat, and kill. It does seem as if individuals are wired for one or the other
Posted by frances (london)
on 02 March 2009, 9:01:36 AM
'You quite correctly describe imperialism at the point of a gun as being savage, barbaric and crass...the US has all of those qualities in abundance. I dont like imperialism the peaceful way either, although it is to be preferred if there is no choice.'

Lee - I can't deal with all these orthoganol concerns except by separating them. I posted earlier about people being worked up to a fight being part of our biology and I stick with that. I have been worked up about socialism, the poor being conned by the rich, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, all my adult life and I see no reason to relax this vigilance. It's a fight. So I would be fighting Imperialism long after every one is doing it the Chinese way or the next way that comes along.

But I renounce violence as a method (except last, last resort defencsive and forget preemptive) as we renounced capital and corporal punishment. We are still struggling with moral and criminal issues but we are talking and thinking about containment and prevention and not concentrating on vengeance. Long way to go but it's the right path.

After the dust settles and peaceful mechanisms take over in national struggles there will still be the power struggle between rich and poor. For example the US will still be after that oil and Israel will still be after land and water. But the focus of the struggles will be clearer to see when the violence is removed.

Currently supporters of Israel are worked up about the physical fight and it is convenient or distracting. But it is a terrible destructive waste and means so many lives are destroyed physically and then mentally and the violence adds nothing to our understanding of the real power struggles underneath and nothing towards solving them.

We get the point that suicide bombings are appalling. Let's wake up and get the point that clinical high tech attack is appalling too. And give up the idea that it's glorious if done by people in uniform recruited by the existing power structures.
Posted by Lee (US)
on 02 March 2009, 12:16:07 AM
Frances: Blair is acting perfectly consistently. He is what TS Eliot described as a "hollow man", someone whose only real concern is himself, his image, wealth, and self regard. If you take the Blair personality and make it psychotic, you get the Talented Mr Ripley. He can feel changes in the direction of the wind with great sensitivity, and so he is now on the Obama band-wagon, just as he switched from Clinton to Bush, without any difficulty. That wouldnt matter to Martyn, who is unconcerned about personal motivation as long as he likes the result. I am sorry, I have far too many scruples to welcome Blair's latest piece of opportunism.

You quite correctly describe imperialism at the point of a gun as being savage, barbaric and crass...the US has all of those qualities in abundance. I dont like imperialism the peaceful way either, although it is to be preferred if there is no choice.

The Chinese are the modern and civilised imperialists in Africa, par excellence. They never interfere with local politics. They simply make themselves indispensable, and they put a huge emphasis on what they call capacity building. So in Angola they have been dramatically transforming the infrastructure and social service delivery, especially in the areas of basic health and education, and they are making Lagos into what may well become the most modern city in Africa. They explain to the Government that their technique requires a carefully balanced blend of effective project design and implementation on a rapid trajectory and capacity building (raising Angolan skills). Because the Angolans are not trained, that requires a large input of Chinese management and trained labour to launch, supervise and evaluate projects. But at the same time they train thousands of Angolans as counterparts.

So Angola gets its high quality infrastructure at Chinese expense, and in return China gets a grateful ally, access to Angola's oil, and a place for thousands of Chinese to settle. Its not perfect, there have been many disagreements. Angolans complain that the Chinese are elite and wont indigenise. They are prototype colonists. The Government also complains that the capacity building often lags behind the project implementation, and that the Government specialists are sometimes excluded from strategic decision-making. On the other hand the Chinese have not killed a single civilian, have paid for every drop of oil, and have made no effort to install a puppet regime.

That is the 21st century version of "civilised imperialism", and if Obama is committed to maintaining the American Empire (which would not please me), then he would do well to study the amazing achievements along with the downsides of China's activities in Africa and now increasingly (modified in interesting ways) in poor societies in Latin America and elsewhere.

Posted by frances (london)
on 01 March 2009, 11:25:57 PM
Tony Blair has gone to Gaza and said he is appalled by the devastation and Britain has offered £20 million. That feels good. It feels as if some progress might come out of that.

This is a confusing discussion because you have the rights and wrongs of one regime or side prevailing and that is a totally different discussion from whether they prevail by force or not.

Wars aren't won by better or braver soldiers. They are won by economic power. They are only one way that the rich prevail over the poor. But it is an old fashioned primitive way and it has no place in this century. Why convert the economic strength to arms and fire power. Ecomomic power can be turned in to all kinds of bribes and pressure without resorting to violence.

The ends don't justify violent means. It would still leave the discussion of the rights and wrongs of the rich scamming the poor but that's a fight to eternity which we are all engaged with and always will be.

I don't know what Tony Blair's motives are or which side he is supporting but giving up violence and proceeding with rebuilding gets my support 100% and that isn't something I normally say about Blair.
Posted by Lee (US)
on 01 March 2009, 8:10:46 PM
Damn, I keep forgetting to sign my name...my post below (as if anyone couldnt tell !!)
Posted by  
on 01 March 2009, 8:08:28 PM
Martyn:

"You spent much of your post explaining why you are cynical about the motives of the USA, whilst frankly they mean little to me. If the USA had succeeded in "freeing" Afghanistan, I don't care whether they did it for good or bad reasons, and I suspect that the Afghans wouldn't care much either."

***********************************************************
OK, you are strictly correct because you did not comment directly on the e is means. What you are saying is that the motive is immaterial. So if Bush had invaded Iraq to control its oil exploration and distribution, ensuring no bid monopolies for US oil companies, thus ensuring that Iraq would have neither control over its resources or the best deal it could make through international competitive bidding, AND they got rid of Saddam Hussein, that is good enough for you. You dont believe that there are any connections between the motives and the means employed. And if you dont mean that, what the hell do you mean ?

*********************************************************
Is it so unusual in your perception of life that there are problem situations in which there are no readily acceptable remedies, but a certain remedy is utterly unacceptable ? Think about it a little. That is the case with the Taleban, Uzbekhistan, Colombia, Zimbabwe, Saudi Arabia, Dafur, the Congo, Palestine, and many other situations in which people are living in miserable conditions. You appear to be perfectly happy with Bush and Blair intervening in regimes you especially dislike, and ignoring the ones which dont seem a priority to you, or which do not have rich pickings for the invading countries. If you arent content with that, why are you not pressing with equal vigour for at least a dozen other invasions and occupations ??

I have already given many reasons why the US invasion and occupation of Afghanistan is not the answer, and you know very well I did not limit myself to motive. I believe that if the cost is as high in innocent lives as it has been in Iraq and Afghanistan, and at the same time the objectives are unachievable, then even if the motives were worthy (which they are not...the emerged from the most repulsive, dishonest, lying administration the US has ever had [are you one of the few Bush supporters left ? You and Brown ?]) the action is unacceptable.

I dont think that it is possible, except in very few situations, to change a regime through invasion, and if that regime is not threatening you, it is illegal. I would be fascinated to see your sources that tell you that under the Geneva Convention, the invasion of Afghanistan was legal !!). Sierra Leone may have been one of the exceptions, and the circumstances were very special.

I dont know why I am the person that has to come up with a solution for Zimbabwe. You havent. If invasion were the only strategy available, I would need to know five things: (a) who would be doing the invading; (b) has it been declared legal without threats of pressure by the Security Council; (c) would it be possible to safeguard civilians; (d) is it almost certain to succeed in displacing Mugabe and replacing his regime with one that would be better; (e) are the motives and interests of the invaders such that they would not seek to occupy and appropriate the resources of the country or attach parts of its economy.

I find it hard to imagine an invasion of Zimbabwe that could satisfy all of those. But it certainly wouldnt be the US and probably not the UK while it acts as America's suppository. There may be a marginal possibility that a UN/African Union force could make it work, but I would need a lot of answers to my questions before I could support such a measure.

I believe that it is the ultimate responsibility of the country's population to get rid of its own tyrants, and I would focus on doing what I could to support liberation movements, and to internationally weaken and isolate the regime. I and my family were ardent fighters against apartheid; we lost friends murdered by the South African police; and were ultimately stripped of our citizenship and forced into exile. We knew many liberation fighters and families suffering under apartheid; and I can tell you without hesitation that not one liberation leader or fighter would have supported a US invasion. It would have been unimaginably horrific. It was ultimately the people of South Africa, with support and recognition from outside (except from Reagan and Thatcher who regarded, and Cheney still does, Mandela as a terrorist) that brought about the change. That is the direction I would support for Zimbabwe too.

Seriously, if you ever hope for a more civilised world, you will have to accept the fact that in the 21st Century it is unacceptable for a big bully country to act like a cowboy around the world, lying about its motives, installing its own puppet regimes, and appropriating assets that are not theirs. Alas, I dont think Obama rises to that level, but we can only hope that he prepares the way for a future president who might; or more likely, that the US meltdown will eventually take it out of the bully club.

Martyn: if I seem somewhat petulant, its because I am. I believe that Blair's lies have seriously damaged democracy and international credibility in the UK, and severely exacerbated the terrorist threat to the country. The way you seem to think, it doesnt matter if one lies as long as they achieve the results you hope for. If that is not what you believe you have some explaining to do.
Posted by Lewis Parry (Elx)
on 01 March 2009, 5:49:16 PM
So,Martyn,Israel's territorial integrity is a huge issue,
but Gibraltar can go hang?
Posted by Martyn Rosen 
on 01 March 2009, 3:47:22 PM
"Given that we are separated by such a tremendous gulf, I doubt whether there is any point in discussing this topic further "

I'm really surprised at you. Lee.

Firstly, your assertion that my comments suggest that I believe that "the end justifies the means" is silly. I said nothing of the sort, and no (other) reasonable reader of my words would think I had.

Your policy on this difficult matter seems to be not to assert your own view, but rather to disagree with other views. You still have not said a word on what you would do (if anything) about the situation in Zimbabwe. Or Darfur, perhaps. It might be that you HAVE no view on these issues (although that would surprise me) but I suspect from your other comments that your policy is laissez-faire.
Posted by Dugsie (North yorkshire)
on 01 March 2009, 3:06:39 PM
According to Erskine May all substantive government decisions should be made in the kitchen of 10 Downing Street,over cocoa and biscuits, by the PM's senior advisers. By the time of the appropriate cabinet meeting, the minutes should already have been typed and bound and placed in the safe, in order to avoid disputation and unpleasantness.Of course, afternoon tea will still be provided.

In the case of the decision to invade Iraq, this was taken by presidential decree in another place. It is not on record at all in the cabinet minutes,but stuck on the wall of a ranch house in Texas with chewing gum.That is why Jack Straw has been caused embarrassment by the demand to produce the appropriate minutes.His behaviour is not at all sinister, as some suspicious people have speculated.That look of permanent bemusement on his face is perfectly genuine.
Posted by Lee (US)
on 01 March 2009, 2:04:35 PM
Dugsie: I love it !! In addition, the Jack Straw who is protecting Jack Straw isnt the same Jack Straw, because of the separation of ministerial portfolios. Pure Monty Python
Posted by Dugsie (North Yorkshire)
on 01 March 2009, 12:12:05 PM
I feel that there is some confusion about the way the British constitution works here Lee. When in parliament cabinet ministers are a part of the legislature, but when in cabinet they are the executive.It's called the separation of powers. Of course, sometimes when they are in parliament they are answering to the legislature on behalf of the executive, this is why they may give the impression that they are talking to themselves.
Posted by Lee (pining for the highlands)
on 01 March 2009, 11:48:29 AM
From today's Scottish Herald. Silence from Compass.
*****************************************************

"When politicians prove themselves to be exactly as Armando describes, we find ourselves equally surprised. What? You mean they lied to us? They're rubbish? They're stupid? This cannot be! But we voted for them and everything!

Take this week's events for example. In a staggeringly display of stinking, repugnant corruption, Jack "final" Straw banged the last nail into the coffin of moribund, corrupt and morally bankrupt New Labour, and what did we do? We blinked in amazement.

Straw's excuse for vetoing the Freedom Of Information Act, that would have allowed publication of Cabinet meeting minutes leading up to the Iraq war, is that it would destroy the ability of ministers to engage in "full, frank and robust discussion, safe in the knowledge that their individual views will not be disclosed".

Are we missing something? Much is made of how important it is that "the tradition" of Cabinet confidentiality be respected, but surely when Cabinet ministers attend a meeting they are not operating as individuals but as elected representatives of the people. Just because it's a tradition doesn't make it right. Why, exactly, should their individual views not be disclosed? If ministers wish to have confidential, frank discussions together as individuals, then they should do so in a private place of their choice. But when they attend a formal Cabinet meeting they should properly be accountable for every word they say, as they are speaking entirely on our behalf.

If debate is open on the floor of The Commons why is it closed in the Cabinet? Why do they imagine that the position of Cabinet minister grants them the right to conceal their views? If nothing else, such behaviour leaves them open to our worst suspicions. Is it confidential because they are repugnant views? Is it because they are wrong and stupid, or that they reveal beliefs and values contrary to the public declarations of the individual minister? Surely any one of those would demand immediate disclosure, not privacy. Or is it, more likely, because such revelation might expose misjudgement, errors, or worse, humiliating dishonesty?

It is already the case that Cabinet minutes made public are less than revealing, skipping lightly over the discussions of the attendees without properly chronicling the details of debate. What then to fear from the Iraq discussions? If anything, this scandal should make us demand even more openness and transparency instead of accepting Straw's hopeless and entirely unconvincing bleatings about "ruining discussion". And all this from the party that promised openness and accountability.

It's a common feature of New Labour's death throes that Straw imagines anyone would be fooled by his preposterous excuses. What we perceive instead, is that in Orwellian fashion the "justice" minister vetoes the Freedom Of Information Act entirely to protect himself from censure over his part in taking us into an illegal war when acting as home secretary."
Posted by frances (london)
on 01 March 2009, 11:11:12 AM
From another thread
'The countries most under threat are those with huge armies which engage in wars of aggression. Sweden and Finland arent under threat. Perhaps you can explain why Britain needs the second highest military budget in the world. I don't believe it has anything to do with threat.'

It's the biology. Sweden and Finland haven't been at war for a long time and their populations are relaxed and look at things from a more peaceful perspective. This is to be encouraged which is why we have war as last resort.

I can understand why people in Israel who have been at war constantly are in a more agitated state and look at things from a war like perspective. Similarly their sympathisers are always in war mode. This is understandable but also strategic if they want to expand.

In the case of the US it is not under any threat and is involved in aggressive wars for economic and strategic reasons so it has to work its population up to war mentality through perceived threats. US and Israeli objectives play off one another here.

Blessed are the peacemakers.

Posted by Colin Tarrant (London)
on 01 March 2009, 9:41:33 AM
To quote someone somewhere, the kaleidoscope has been shaken..... blair blair.
I wish someone would attack the privately educated bankers on that issue. They are overwhelmingly privately schooled and as such have little concept of the common good and the public project to create a cohesive society held together by decent values that are universally accepted. Now is the moment to drive home just how dodgy private education is for society; it promotes mediocrity over talent, creates social division, stifles social mobility, starves the state system of teachers, students and parents and fosters the belief that money allows you to opt out of the social project. This issue is never tackled because too many politicians, journalists and broadcasters use private schools to privilege their offspring. In response to the argument of personal financial freedom we should champion The Greater Good - an idea whose time has come. Yet The Labour Party has nothing to say on this, a silence I find deafening.
Posted by frances (london)
on 01 March 2009, 8:21:35 AM
It may go back to biology. We are peaceable most of the time but when an enemy appears we are roused to fighting mode. (That's mainly the men). It's how sports crowds work.

Our rational political thinking has trouble coping with both modes. Peace activism would encourage people to deliberately be conscious of this and make a choice not to be switched into attack mode which is deliberately designed to be blind with no way back. Self awareness is hard to achieve.

When groups of monkeys meet they do a head count and make a lot of noise. There is a moment of choice where they can back off or go for full attack. Once you go for attack it takes over. The weaker side has an instinct to flee.

I'm sure all these instincts are in play when we think we are being rational about war. The leaders job is to switch the crowd in to attack mode or back off. Anything in the middle is dangerous.

Posted by Lee (here)
on 01 March 2009, 3:10:10 AM
Martyn: We are worlds apart. I will never accept the principle that the ends justify the means. That is the language of tyranny. That is the way of thinking that produces obscene excuses such as "collateral damage" for the slaughter of children.

Given that we are separated by such a tremendous gulf, I doubt whether there is any point in discussing this topic further
Posted by Martyn Rosen 
on 28 February 2009, 10:38:15 PM
Lee, let me try to answer some of the many points you raised.

First, the legaility of the US attack on Afghanistan international law. There are many more arbiters of international law than the United Nations, which is primarily a political body rather than a jurisprudential one. Under the Geneva and Hague Conventions, if a country is attacked by a "body" which is then protected by another "body" then the country attacked has the right to declare war on (and therefore to attack) the protecting "body". The only issue of doubt here is whether the Geneva Conventions cover a non-statist "body" such as al Qaeda. But as you yourself have several times invoked the Geneva Conventions on behalf of Hamas, I assume you accept that a self-declared group of this sort is covered by them.

As I read the remainder of our post, you seem to be admitting that there is nothing the world can do except "let nature take its course", an admirably Darwinian conclusion but not one that I can subscribe to.

You spent much of your post explaining why you are cynical about the motives of the USA, whilst frankly they mean little to me. If the USA had succeeded in "freeing" Afghanistan, I don't care whether they did it for good or bad reasons, and I suspect that the Afghans wouldn't care much either. If proof of motives had been a prerequisite for American entry into the two World Wars, most of us wouldn't be here today. For good motives or bad, people who need protection from the strong should have a claim to it.

However, let's clear the mists a little. Let's move away from your personal nemesis and talk about a conflict in which the USA is NOT involved. Tell me what you think "the world" should do about Zimbabwe. Let nature take its course ?
Posted by Lee (US)
on 28 February 2009, 2:32:03 PM
Stan: Although I personally do not buy into the more charitable position you propose, I accept that it may be plausible. It would not be ridiculous to imagine that the overthrow of the Taliban pleased much if not most of the population. That, of course, is very different to (a) being pleased that it was the US that did the overthrowing; (b) being happy that the US is now occupying chunks of your country; and (c) being content with the fact that the US is keeping in place a corrupt and incompetent puppet government. These various strands are not simply parts of the same thing. It is quite possible for the Afghan people to detest both the Taliban and the occupiers, I am sure you will agree.

The charitable interpretation rests on whether Obama can defeat the Taleban. If somehow he were able to do that, and if the Afghan population were able to establish the political system they prefer (which is highly unlikely to be Obama's preferred system), then maybe the cost in human lives and misery might be offset by those achievements.

But this is the most vulnerable aspect of the charitable interpretation, or the lesser of two evils scenario. The Taleban are now back in almost three quarters of Afghanistan and actually control large parts. There has been no stage since their return when the US has been able to reverse that situation: it has continued relentlessly. Karzai is little more than a symbolic presence, basically the mayor of Kabul, and in recent times, as we all know, the Taleban can enter Kabul with virtual impunity. They control three of the major four roads into the capital. Behind the Taleban, there is also a growing movement along the Pakistan border, so powerful now that the Pakistan Government has virtually surrendered power in those areas.

If you are going to continue to kill large numbers of civilians using the only techniques which seem to be available to the US, and you are losing ground to the Taleban anyway, that hardly seems to me to be the better of two evils.

Obama appears convinced that his escalation will bring "victory". On PBS last night, he was questioned specifically on what "victory" would mean, and was unable to say. But let us suppose that it means that the US is able to expel the Taleban from all the areas to which they have returned; and let's say creating sufficient security for the Karzai administration to extend its rule to the entire country (and I personally believe neither of those are achievable), what happens next ? Obama has stated that there is no intention of a permanent occupation of Afghanistan, which would require hundreds of thousands of troops, and something to which NATO would respond with a huge raspberry, especially during a period of economic melt-down. Do you believe that the US could withdraw and that the Taleban would stay away ? Do you think Obama could, or would even be allowed to occupy Pakistani sovereign territory and pacify the Pashtun ? And remember that the only way the US can fight these wars is with very high civilian deaths.

How long do you think it would take before the European countries bullied into supporting the US occupation, through NATO, would remain ? We know that the "coalition of the willing" melted away dramatically in Iraq as soon as it became clear that Bush would lose. How long do you think it would take before the US public would insist on a withdrawal from Afghanistan. Do you imagine that Obama will wreck his re-election prospects by ignoring the demands from the very people who elected him ? Dont you see any significance in the fact that Obama's announcement yesterday changing his pledge to withdraw from Iraq was greeted with such enthusiasm by Republicans, and caused such consternation in Pelosi and Reid ?

Its all very well to be charitable, but charitability without feasibility doesnt count for much. And when you are killing innocent people in your endeavour, it is not reasonable to claim that its at least better that you try, if there is no assurance that your efforts will succeed.

Posted by Stan Rosenthal 
on 28 February 2009, 1:44:58 PM
Lee, I simply said the results of that poll were ambiguous, not conclusive, compared with the alternative view that just assumes the Afghans must have been have been against the invasion and now want the Americans out without any evidence whatsoever..

The headlines you mention are the spin that these news agencies gave to the results, no doubt related to their own take on the war.

My argument is that these figures are pretty good for the Americans if you take into account all the setbacks we're reading about.

Of course you can always nit-pick about them if they don't fit your thesis but however flawed they must be better than pure speculation based on what you want to believe.

And even if you are right about Obama's motivation for the war sometimes you can be right for the wrong reasons.
Posted by Lee (us)
on 28 February 2009, 1:26:17 PM
Frances: It was early so I was not as alert as I should have been. It does seem like a "mission impossible". Some pollsters in poor countries even pay for participation. I dont know whether that was the case here. But in as volatile a situation like Afghanistan, participants are very likely to respond the way they think will benefit/protect themselves, especially as such polls are not anonymous. A major problem is sample size...just 1,400 to cover all the diversity of a country large parts of which would have been inaccessible; and who knows how many people refused to participate. Often in such polls, the refusals are larger than the sample, which makes complete nonsense of the representativeness of the sample.
Posted by frances (london)
on 28 February 2009, 10:12:12 AM
Frances:

The methodology and sampling simply doesnt read as something likely to yield valid and reliable results. There are too many potential contaminants. That is all I am saying


I was agreeing with you. There is no methodology that will deliver a valid sample of opinion in a war situation. No one will speak freely. They won't believe any reassurance that it is safe. And who has access to sample freely on both sides of a conflict. Who is providing the security in enemy territory? It's a nonsense.
Posted by Lee (US)
on 28 February 2009, 8:59:50 AM
Frances:

The methodology and sampling simply doesnt read as something likely to yield valid and reliable results. There are too many potential contaminants. That is all I am saying

Martyn and Stan:

If you go to the NPR (National Public Radio) website, you can hear an interview of Obama carried out by Jim Lehrer (America's Jeremy Paxton but far more sycophantic) concerning the Afghanistan Surge. Obama discusses the objectives in Afghanistan at some length, and not once does he mention "democracy", "freedom", saving the Afghan people etc. Not once. He is very candid, in a way refreshingly so. The objectives are to safeguard the American people and American interests. He also, by the way, included Pakistan among his administration's military theatres. Nice !
Posted by frances (london)
on 27 February 2009, 11:54:47 PM
That's very cynical Lee. Are you saying that it's easier to get the questionaires filled in in the Green Zone instead of a rigorous geographical sample covering the Taliban heartlands. Or are you saying that when you drive up to get the sample from the selected heartland village with an armed escort of Americans the people all answer 'we love the USA' instead of 'we're actually Taliban supporters - shoot us'

The mental health tsar Appleby gets surveys from mental health patients that say 95% are satisfied or very satisfied with their treatment unlike the mental health patients you meet who are never satisfied.

There is something about power relationships that doesn't mix well with surveys.
Posted by Lee (YOU-ES)
on 27 February 2009, 11:34:48 PM
Stan: The experts responsible for the poll gave this commentary:

"Support for U.S. Efforts Plummets Amid Afghanistan’s Ongoing Strife

The United States, its NATO allies and the government of Hamid Karzai are losing not just ground in Afghanistan – but also the hearts and minds of the Afghan people. A new national public opinion poll in Afghanistan by ABC News, the BBC and ARD German TV finds that performance ratings and support levels for the Kabul government and its Western allies have plummeted from their peaks, particularly in the past year. Widespread strife, a resurgent Taliban, struggling development, soaring corruption and
broad complaints about food, fuel, power and prices all play a role.

The effects are remarkable: With expectations for security and economic development unmet, the number of Afghans who say their country is headed in the right direction has dived from 77 percent in 2005 to 40 percent now – fewer than half for the first time in these polls. "

One of my professional specialisms is opinion surveying...been doing it for 30 years for leading international organisations. Even although these results lend some support to what I have been saying, I dont trust a poll with a survey sample of less than 1,500 people in as diverse a country as Afghanistan. You would expect opinion to be most favourable in Kabul, and that is also where staking polls would be easiest. There is a PDF copy of the methodology used, and the sample sizes in provinces most antagonistic to the US were very small. Its hard to believe they could have been properly stratified. In any event, there are many parts where I doubt surveyors could even access.

There are other reports of increasing antagonism to the US occupation even in Kabul. In areas where there is a smaller US predominance and more NATO forces, one would expect the results to differ; but no accessible surveys appear to exist on this.

Another complicating factor is that wealthier and better educated Aghans, who are most likely to be those surveyed, are, in contrast to the general population, benefiting from the increased drug trade, and as you know, it was banned under the Taleban and the US is seen as instrumental in its massive resurgence.

Just too many factors at play here to be sure of what these results mean.


Posted by Stan Rosenthal 
on 27 February 2009, 10:37:47 PM
Lee, you say "it isnt up to you or me to decide which is the better or worse evil...that is a decision only Afghans have the right to make; and on balance, based on the scant surveys taken, they seem to want the US out of there immediate"

Well the latest survey I have seen (taken by ABC/BBC/ARD,Germany in Dec/Jan - sorry, no web links allowed on Compass sites) is a bit more ambiguous. Despite all the setbacks (a resurgent Taliban, civilian losses in airstrikes) 47% still have a favourable opinion of the US,40% still feel the country is heading in the right direction as opposed to 38% in the wrong direction), 58% see the Taliban as the biggest danger, compared to 8% for the US, 92% support girls schools, 91% women voting.

The decline in support for the Americans from 60% to 70% in 2006 seems to be more due to the decline in security rather than any desire to see the Americans withdraw. In areas with strong security support for the Americans is up to the 60/70% mark again.

Hope this helps.
Posted by Lee (Here)
on 27 February 2009, 9:49:34 PM
Sorry...mine below
Posted by  
on 27 February 2009, 9:48:25 PM
Frances:

'In a way, that is all the answer I should provide to your question about what should be done about the Taleban. There are no alternative world structures'

So create some.

The world should be concentrating on developing structures and mechanisms at the UN for promoting world values around nuclear weapons, capital punishment, renegotiating national boundaries, education for women - any issue that people want to work on.
*********************************************************
Frances

There are structures that have made significant headway in areas you mention. The original European Union helped to ensure that the death penalty has been abolished throughout Europe. The more effective parts of the UN, especially UNICEF in this respect, and the World Bank as a sister agency, and the Regional Development banks, have made significant headway in terms of educating girls and women. There are quite successful mechanisms for sorting out boundary disputes, bringing war criminals to justice etc. So it is not true that "collective government" never works. We know that regional trade and development organisations in East Asia and Latin America are beginning to work impressively.

But honestly, the US doesnt want this. It will accept international or world structures of governance only if it is exempt from provisions it expects everyone else to follow, or if it can control those agencies to do the US bidding. That is why NATO will ultimately fail because it is not a genuine partnership.

So, if you are praying for anything for Obama's Presidency, it would be that he realises that effective collective governance requires a fundamental, root and stock change in America's role and attitude. Personally, I think that will only happen with a massive economic meltdown which leaves America in need of help and recognising that.
Posted by Lee (not home)
on 27 February 2009, 9:36:03 PM
Martyn: this is the opinion of one jurist on the illegality of the Afghan invasion

"The U.N. Charter provides that all member states must settle their international disputes by peaceful means, and no nation can use military force except in self-defense or when authorized by the Security Council. After the 9/11 attacks, the council passed two resolutions, neither of which authorized the use of military force in Afghanistan. Resolutions 1368 and 1373 condemned the Sept. 11 attacks and ordered the freezing of assets; the criminalizing of terrorist activity; the prevention of the commission of and support for terrorist attacks; and the taking of necessary steps to prevent the commission of terrorist activity, including the sharing of information. In addition, it urged ratification and enforcement of the international conventions against terrorism.

The invasion of Afghanistan was not legitimate self-defense under article 51 of the charter because the attacks on Sept. 11 were criminal attacks, not "armed attacks" by another country. Afghanistan did not attack the United States. In fact, 15 of the 19 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia. Furthermore, there was not an imminent threat of an armed attack on the United States after Sept. 11, or Bush would not have waited three weeks before initiating his October 2001 bombing campaign. The necessity for self-defense must be "instant, overwhelming, leaving no choice of means, and no moment for deliberation." This classic principle of self-defense in international law has been affirmed by the Nuremberg Tribunal and the U.N. General Assembly."

Alternet 8/1/2008
Posted by frances (london)
on 27 February 2009, 9:34:29 PM
'In a way, that is all the answer I should provide to your question about what should be done about the Taleban. There are no alternative world structures'

So create some.

The world should be concentrating on developing structures and mechanisms at the UN for promoting world values around nuclear weapons, capital punishment, renegotiating national boundaries, education for women - any issue that people want to work on.

The idea of bombing people or occupying people in to better values and understanding is misguided and primitive.

But it's only ever a cover story. A perfectly valid one like the Sudetan Germans. After WW1 the American President spent six months in Europe hiving off German populations to weaken Germany. Germany could make a very good case for liberating them. But it was suspected to be a cover story. If you are going to get a cover story get a convincing one.
Posted by Lee (elsewhere)
on 27 February 2009, 9:18:52 PM
Gremlins Again !@!!!

Martyn:

I would like to know the basis for your claiming that the invasion of Afghanistan was legal.

Your question is perfectly fair however, and I will try to respond.

There has to be two perspectives on this issue: principles, and outcomes.

All invading countries claim that there reasons for invasion are to rescue someone. The conquistadors were rescuing American Indians from paganism and bringing them to Jesus' bosom. Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia claiming he was protecting Sudenten Germans. We very rapidly dismiss the credibility of both of those. Just because a power claims a benign purpose, doesnt mean that the purpose is benign.

We know that prior to 9/11, the Taleban visited Bush and corporate chiefs in Texas to discuss the oil pipeline. We know that the Taleban rejected Bush's demands that they allow US military occupation to protect the pipeline, US sole sourcing of the contract, and US monopoly and complete control over its utilization. That was a demand to yield sovereignty, something the US would never consider. The Taleban were NOT regarded as so terrible when Bush invited them to Texas, despite the fact that everything they have been accused of since, was in full sway at the time of the invitation and the negotiations on the pipeline. Bush told the departing Taleban that if they didnt reconsider, they would be bombed into reconsideration...that the pipeline would happen regardless of what they wanted. Then there was 9/11. If you did not know about this prelude Martyn, you do now. If you did know, then you couldnt possibly believe that Bush invaded to save Afghan women. That is what he instructed Laura Bush to say on TV, and I have enough respect for you to know that that wouldnt have convinced you.

The UN Charter says clearly that wars of aggression are the highest form of war crime. For an invading country to act in a way that is not criminal, it has to show that it is defending itself. Even pre-emptive action is not permitted. Even today it is dubious whether any court outside the US, would convict Al Qaeda. Afghanistan did not carry out 9/11. Bush ordered the invasion with no enquiry and no establishment of the facts. He was waiting for the chance. He even wrote in his diary, that 9/11 "is my Pearl Harbour".

Now you may think all of that doesnt matter. That may be your personal opinion; but the fact that you may think that way doesnt give the act legitimacy.

The second issue is outcome. The US has achieved nothing except (a) the deaths of hundreds of innocent civilians; (b) the recommencement of the world's largest heroin trade, most of it destined for the US, and bringing valuable export revenue to Uzbekhistan; (c) the Talebanization of almost the entire Afghan/Pakistan border area; (d) the placement of a corrupt and criminal family of puppets in Kabul, who are so hated they dare not leave the capital; and (e) major humanitarian crises. Of course, they have not achieved these things alone, but their invasion has been the major catalyst (in other words these things would not have happened without it, ...although other bad or maybe even worse things might have, but it is a mug's game to go down that route).

Some of the most reputable military experts in the west, many of them in the US and the UK, have stated that the war is already lost and can never be won. The concept of "winning hearts and minds" is pure disney. Grown up mature people dont think in such simplistic cliches. The American presence in Afghanistan is overwhelmingly hated by the local population. It is inevitable, because in all such similar situations that has always been the case. Obama may think that the Afghans may decide to love the US because they hand out snickers bars or bubble gum to the kids. Let us hope he doesnt. His generals sure seem to. As the US discovered in Vietnam and Korea, if the local population detests you, you will never defeat the enemy, especially in a country like Afghanistan.

So, even if your interpretation of US motives were pure altruism, they are failing, killing innocent civilians, and creating massive social dislocation in the process. By the way, a significant proportion of the tax-payers money set aside for "reconstruction" has simply been stolen, and very little reconstruction has occurred, just as in Iraq. "Reconstruction" is a label the US has chosen to give for war profiteering and corporate theft, one of Bush's motives (or Cheney's) for the invasion.

It is not only whom you invade, for what reason, with what legitimacy, and with what prospects of success that matter (and the US fails on all of these), it is also who does the invading. When the Republicans were in opposition to Clinton, the future Bush war cabinet operated through the Project for the New American Century (still online for you to consult) where it was startlingly clear about its imperial motives. So even if you think that an invasion to remove the Taleban is an acceptable and potentially achievable proposition, do you select an invader with the US's declared agendas and its track record of civilian massacre ? Surely not !

And Stan, it isnt up to you or me to decide which is the better or worse evil...that is a decision only Afghans have the right to make; and on balance, based on the scant surveys taken, they seem to want the US out of there immediately

Opposing Bush and now Obama's war is NOT the same as saying that the Taleban is acceptable; and both you and Stan know that. It would be highly disingenuous to imply that.

Back to your original question. Because invasions have caused so much death and misery in the last century and solved almost nothing, it is correct, in my view, for the international community, such as it is, to take a position of principle on this issue. "Principle" means that it applies in all situations, not just in your favourite situation. You dont make exemptions just because you particularly hate the Taleban or admire Obama. "Principle" doesnt offer you that licence.

The world is full of disgusting and disgraceful regimes that oppress and slaughter their populations. You may, in terms of your own values, find some more disgusting than others; but that is not a test that stands up to "principles". Whether an innocent child is killed by the Taleban, the US, the Colombian police force, the Lords Army in Uganda, the government thug-squads of the Uzbekistan government, matters little to the murdered child. A child killed by a Nazi is not more terribly killed than a child killed by the Georgian mafia. That is what "principle" means.

We do not have a world in which a single body is able to act effectively on such principles, with consistency, transparency, and effective outcome. You know very well that Blair and Bush did their utmost to destroy whatever effectiveness may have existed in the United Nations. It is not true that they have always been ineffective. I know from first-hand experience that their role in Eastern Slovonia (Vukovar) was considerably more effective and acceptable than any invasion organised by the US; and in years past there have been many similar examples.

But the doctrine of the US Empire doesnt allow for a UN to displace the US's hegemony in intervening wherever it wishes under any pretext. And so, over the last twenty years, the UN has been ground down and can now do very little except by permission from the White House.

In a way, that is all the answer I should provide to your question about what should be done about the Taleban. There are no alternative world structures, and we are left with America deciding that that atrocity is OK because it serves US interests, whereas that one is unacceptable and (gosh there's oil) we must intervene.

The fuller answer is that a continued US occupation wont change a thing; and will probably cause far more death and misery over time. The US withdrawing is probably Stan's lesser evil. It is unlik
Posted by Stan Rosenthal 
on 27 February 2009, 6:29:56 PM
Thank you for such a full reply, Lee.

The fact is that the Afghans WERE oppressed under the Taliban and the country WAS used to train terrorists from all over the world. The local warlords etc were ineffective in doing something about it until the coalition stepped in.

Yes, there is still corruption, yes, there might be more than one reason for the invasion and yes, too many innocent people are being caught in the cross-fire. But once again it's all about which is the lesser of the evils.

As far as I'm concerned the downside of fighting an enemy that DELIBERATELY targets the innocent and has deliberately nurtured the world-wide terrorist movement is certainly the lesser of the evils.

And Frances, this war was partly fought not just to give girls a good education but to stop them being murdered for wanting one.

It amazes me that someone of your apparent sensitivity to suffering and injustice should be so oblivious to this consideration.

Yes, there may have been other reasons for the war but surely stopping this kind of murder has to be applauded.

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